Meade Meade and The Crater

[Specster]

I have read two different accounts as to why the black troops were withdrawn for the follow up to the crater explosion - one is that the brass thought it was going to be a success and wanted white troops to get the glory. The other is that when Meade heard of the plan he thought it was ridiculous and didnt want to be maligned in the Northern papers for sending many black troops to their deaths.

When Lincoln heard of the fiasco, and that Burnside was charged with its execution, he said something like, only Burnside could have pulled off such a coup, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Which version do most think is accurate?

 

[hanna260]

Okay- first of all I'm pretty sure Lincoln never said the whole snatching defeat from the jaws of victory thing though it's a nice quote. . See here: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/06/07/jaws-of-victory/

I'm also pretty sure it was the second one. Meade was worried about how the press would take it if there were high casualties and especially since he would be accused of sacrificing those men's lives simply because they were black. Grant agreed, so he bears some of the responsibility too. The problem was those men had been trained on what to do and the division that ultimately made the charge had not- leading to mass confusion and men actually falling in the hole. It didn't help that according to some- the guy in charge of the division that ultimately made the charge- James H. Ledlie, was in the rear getting rip-roaringly drunk!

 

[ErnieMac]

From what I have read Meade was concerned that if the attack turned into a fiasco the army leadership (read Meade and Grant) would be accused of sacrificing the black troops. He ordered Burnside to select another division. When Burnside protested Meade kicked the final decision upstairs to Grant who backed Meade.

 

[cash]

Meade was never behind the plan from the start. Grant really didn't think much of it, but felt it was a great way to keep the soldiers busy. Once the mine was completed he saw an opportunity for an attack.

Originally, Ferrero's division was to lead the attack. Meade pointed out that if it failed they would be accused of deliberately sending black troops to their deaths, so at the eleventh hour Burnside was told to pick another division. Instead of picking his best remaining division, Burnside had the division commanders draw straws, with Ledlie, his absolute worst division commander, drawing the short straw.

 

[rhettbutler1865]

That's what I read, also, E.Mac...

 

[rhettbutler1865]

Okay- first of all I'm pretty sure Lincoln never said the whole snatching defeat from the jaws of victory thing though it's a nice quote. . See here: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/06/07/jaws-of-victory/

I'm also pretty sure it was the second one. Meade was worried about how the press would take it if there were high casualties and especially since he would be accused of sacrificing those men's lives simply because they were black. Grant agreed, so he bears some of the responsibility too. The problem was those men had been trained on what to do and the division that ultimately made the charge had not- leading to mass confusion and men actually falling in the hole. It didn't help that according to some- the guy in charge of the division that ultimately made the charge- James H. Ledlie, was in the rear getting rip-roaringly drunk!

Hanna, you enjoy speaking about the press--do we have a reporter/Pulitzer writer in the works here? (you)

 

[hanna260]

Hanna, you enjoy speaking about the press--do we have a reporter/Pulitzer writer in the works here? (you)

I find the press really interesting! It's so cool that you picked up on that. I just find it fascinating how it evolved and how much power they held back in the ACW era and how they managed to control a lot of popular conceptions about the war- such as Meade.

 

[Patrick H]

I don't think it would violate the forum rules to say that the press (today, it's more correct to say the mass media--including the various social media) still has the power to control a lot of popular conceptions. It has always been this way and I suspect it always will be. That's my firm belief.

 

[hanna260]

I don't think it would violate the forum rules to say that the press (today, it's more correct to say the mass media--including the various social media) still has the power to control a lot of popular conceptions. It has always been this way and I suspect it always will be. That's my firm belief.

Most definitely agreed. But because of social media now, there are a lot more outlets to learn about current events. Back then all they had was the press- so the press was pretty much the sole ones framing the story.

 

[theoldman]

Several sources are available, but my favorite is
The Horrid Pit: The Battle of the Crater, the Civil War's Cruelest Mission
Jul 20, 2007
by Alan Axelrod.

It has been awhile since I read the book but I agree with the second option as the more realistic reason why Meade made the changes he made. I recall he was also not an 'enthusiastic advocate' of the concept and his chief Engineer, whose name I cannot recall, was also not helpful in the effort.

 

[kepi]

It was a lost opportunity to end the siege for sure.

 

[brass napoleon]

Okay- first of all I'm pretty sure Lincoln never said the whole snatching defeat from the jaws of victory thing though it's a nice quote. . See here: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/06/07/jaws-of-victory/

Nice find.

I'm also pretty sure it was the second one. Meade was worried about how the press would take it if there were high casualties and especially since he would be accused of sacrificing those men's lives simply because they were black. Grant agreed, so he bears some of the responsibility too.

It was really some of both. Throughout the campaign the black troops in Meade's command had been kept behind the lines guarding wagon trains and doing fatigue duty. They were not put on the front lines because many of the officers didn't trust them, and that would appear to include Meade himself. They did make a good showing for themselves on the failed attempt to capture Petersburg during Grant's sidle across the James in June, but they were only given that opportunity because there were no other troops handy. It was in fact that performance that convinced Burnside they were worth giving a try at the Crater.

Neither Meade or Grant had a lot of confidence in Burnside's scheme. Meade seems to have had little confidence in the black troops either, partly because of his own prejudice and partly because they were inexperienced in combat. When he forwarded the issue to Grant, it was Grant who seemed to be more concerned that using black troops on such a desperate maneuver would appear to be sacrificing them.

The problem was those men had been trained on what to do and the division that ultimately made the charge had not- leading to mass confusion and men actually falling in the hole.

There's actually some disagreement on whether the black troops were specially trained or not. Some officers said they were; others said they weren't. It's clear that they spent a lot of time training, but I think a lot of that training was just in ordinary field maneuvers that the black troops had been deprived of in the past because nobody expected them to ever be used in combat.

There was no master plan for how the troops were to advance. During the course of the training, the two brigade commanders, Thomas and Sigfried, decided on a plan to advance around the crater that they knew would be formed. But that was an informal plan and they never shared that information with their superiors. And of course that was all going to be subject to the terrain, which would be vastly different (and nobody knew exactly how) when the time came.

It didn't help that according to some- the guy in charge of the division that ultimately made the charge- James H. Ledlie, was in the rear getting rip-roaringly drunk!

Yes, Ledlie screwed it up big time and Burnside did too by putting him in the lead position (among other things). It was really a pathetic performance by the Union command.