Mcdowell

[major bill]

We discuss many Civil War generals but we rarely talk of General Irwin McDowell. I understand he became head of the Department of Northeastern Virginia because General Scott and Secretary Chase liked him. McDowell did seem to have all the normal requirements for higher command except most of his positions had been staff type positions. Was McDowell a poor leader or did his defeat at Bull Run taint his reputation.?

 

[nitrofd]

1st Manassas was a learning experience for everyone.he just became a scapegoat at the time.he never was given a true chance to show his ability so we may never know the true answer.

 

[rhettbutler1865]

Thanks--this just jarred my memory of the "unexpected Confederate troops coming up behind him--fresh from rail cars". And he was given raw troops...I feel bad for the guy. He tried--and Cedar Mountain went well for him, but his frustration must have been immense--he defended himself quite a bit, but perhaps was better off not in the field. We'll never know, as was mentioned by nitrofd...

 

[nitrofd]

The first of a few times Joe Johnston showed aggressivenss.then he became the king of retreat.

 

[hanna260]

I don't know very much about McDowell but I think both. I think that Bull Run was mixture both of too green troops (McDowell lamented this prompting Lincoln to give his very famous response) and also of his own mistakes. He had a rather complex plan that his troops never could have carried out- and as a result, the whole battle seems like it was chaos. Rebel Yell describes him as someone who was not very inspiring as a leader or friend- stiff, cold, formal. Gwynne makes him sound a little like Bragg- very strict disciplinarian and someone without the love of his volunteers. He also didn't have too many accomplishments before being put in charge of the Union army! So, it sounds like even if Bull Run was a success- he would have had a hard time as an army commander.

 

[Northern Light]

If I remember correctly, McDowell was pushed by Lincoln et al to meet the Confederates in a battle which he knew the men were not prepared for and which he did not want to fight for that reason. To blame him for the mess is hardly fair. If he had been left to prepare the army and been more confident that they were ready to fight, the outcome might have been much different. Another example of political interference that cost many lives. War and politics make bad bedfellows.

 

[huskerblitz]

War and politics make bad bedfellows.

And yet they are such frequent companions.

 

[Northern Light]

And yet they are such frequent companions.

Unfortunately, yes, they are. When you have one group that really doesn't understand how the other group works, as in politicians and the army, the ones who will suffer are the ones wearing the uniforms, not the armchair quarterbacks sitting in their comfy offices.

 

[major bill]

Like it or not all wars are politico-military affairs. Woe be the general who forgets this and fights a war like war is a purely military matter.

 

[Northern Light]

Like it or not all wars are politico-military affairs. Woe be the general who forgets this and fights a war like war is a purely military matter.

Would it be a completely stupid idea to make the secretary of war a military person? Oh, wait.... we are talking about politics, aren't we? How stupid of me to suggest such a thing!!!!!!!!

 

[Lnwlf]

McDowell served as a commander of an army, a division, and a corps in 1861 and 1862, with of course below stellar performances at each. I think to get a good picture of McDowell we need to look at his service in varying departmental posts later in the war. Besides, he served in the same neighborhood as McClellan, Fremont, and Pope, so someone is going to get bad press, and it wouldn't be the first three gentlemen! Departmental command would be where I would study McDowell.

 

[Elennsar]

McDowell's performance at Bull Run contributed to why he lost. That being said, no one could have done a lot there, so judging him solely by the failure there is unreasonable.

Judging his influence on the battle, and on the deployment of his troops in other issues - he commanded the
Department of the Rappahannock for a couple months, so it could show something of him as an administrator or how well he formed a bond with volunteers (that one not as dependent on his rank) - McDowell was not the stuff of greatness.

Horrible incompetence, no. But he seems like there was nothing that justified the initial promotion.

 

[nitrofd]

McDowell's performance at Bull Run contributed to why he lost. That being said, no one could have done a lot there, so judging him solely by the failure there is unreasonable.

Judging his influence on the battle, and on the deployment of his troops in other issues - he commanded the
Department of the Rappahannock for a couple months, so it could show something of him as an administrator or how well he formed a bond with volunteers (that one not as dependent on his rank) - McDowell was not the stuff of greatness.

Horrible incompetence, no. But he seems like there was nothing that justified the initial promotion.

If not McDowell who would you have promoted..please don't say old fuss and feathers.

 

[Elennsar]

Who do I have to choose from?

 

[hanna260]

Who do I have to choose from?

That may have been part of Lincoln's dilemma.

 

[hendrickms24]

I'm not sure if Gen. McDowell was a good combat leader and we will never know. We do have to realize that in the beginning of the war no one had experience of commanding a unit larger then a regiment. Heck most of the time the U.S. Regular regiments were never consolidated. If you look at the Seven Days Battles you will see all the good Confederate officers were screwing up to the point that it affected the outcome of the battles. I mark it up to on the job training for both the officers and the enlisted. Did McDowell get enough OJT before being shelved?

 

[Pat Young]

I recall reading a bunch of immigrant primary sources about 2nd Bull Run and a lot of them did not like Irwin. He seems to have been uninspirstional. .

 

[Elennsar]

I'm not sure if Gen. McDowell was a good combat leader and we will never know. We do have to realize that in the beginning of the war no one had experience of commanding a unit larger then a regiment. Heck most of the time the U.S. Regular regiments were never consolidated. If you look at the Seven Days Battles you will see all the good Confederate officers were screwing up to the point that it affected the outcome of the battles. I mark it up to on the job training for both the officers and the enlisted. Did McDowell get enough OJT before being shelved?

We have both the First and Second Bull Run campaigns, even if everything else doesn't count. It's not like he was removed or dead after a skirmish or midway through a battle - what prevents us from knowing?

 

[rhettbutler1865]

Would it be a completely stupid idea to make the secretary of war a military person? Oh, wait.... we are talking about politics, aren't we? How stupid of me to suggest such a thing!!!!!!!!

I think you're on to something, there, nl!

 

[hendrickms24]

We have both the First and Second Bull Run campaigns, even if everything else doesn't count. It's not like he was removed or dead after a skirmish or midway through a battle - what prevents us from knowing?

Okay let me change my statement to I really do not know much about McDowell performance. If you look at a number of other Generals they sure got more time to show their stuff. Bragg, Franklin, Banks, McClellan, etc. had more chances to command in combat then McDowell did. I think it is interesting that McDowell stayed in the Army after the war until retirement. Was he better at administration then combat command? I would say yes and all army need good admin positions to run the army behind the scenes.
I also think one of the reasons the U.S. Army won was the officers in the Commissary, Quartermaster, etc. were better then their counter parts. Of course that is a different topic.