Markings on Confederate Enfield

[OldSarge79]

I am trying to find information on two markings on my Confederate-imported Pattern 1851 Enfield Minie Rifle. The first is a stamped "NO" on the stock opposite the lock plate. It could be "ND" or even "ON" if viewed from the opposite direction. I am told it may be an assembler's mark. Has anyone seen an identical or similar stamp, perhaps with different letters, on an Enfield or other musket?
Also, there is a "2" stamped on the ramrod, about two inches from the tip. Has anyone seen something similar?

 

[Larryh86GT]

It looks more like an ND than an NO. I would guess them to be the initials of the owner at one time.

 

[UCVRelics]

If you could post some photos of the lock-plate and barrel markings it would be very helpful in helping ID this Enfield.

 

[OldSarge79]

I have a few other photos already that I will try to post. Not sure about markings under the barrel. One of the three pins holding the barrel is broken off in place and not sure if I can get it off safely. I can take more photos but it will be later today.

 

[OldSarge79]

It looks more like an ND than an NO. I would guess them to be the initials of the owner at one time.

It's stamped, not carved, so I suspect it means something more professional. Still, you could be right.

 

[UCVRelics]

I have a few other photos already that I will try to post. Not sure about markings under the barrel. One of the three pins holding the barrel is broken off in place and not sure if I can get it off safely. I can take more photos but it will be later today.

I was referring to the markings on the top of the barrel on the breach end.

 

[johan_steele]

What convinced you it is a CS import? There weren't that many P51s made and most were still in the Brit army ordnance pipeline. There weren't a whole lot imported.

The 2 is likely a batch number, as they were hand made instead of machine made parts were fitted to individual arms.

There should be other stampings on the barrel, butt plate etc. I would expect to see the broad arrow facing broad arrow (point to point sometimes mistaken for a stylized X) on numerous points.

From what I can see at first blush I would say it more likely saw service in India than the CS.

The P51 is an interesting addition to any collection.

 

[originalrebelyell]

Agree not CW used.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

"johan_steele, post: There should be other stampings on the barrel, butt plate etc. I would expect to see the broad arrow facing broad arrow (point to point sometimes mistaken for a stylized X) on numerous points.[/QUOTE]

There were 10,000 P-51 rifle muskets [obsolete], bought and refurbished by Barnett who then sold them to S. Isaac & Campbell.. These were purchased in August, 1861 from S. Isaac Campbell & Company by the CS government. The Ptn 51's had been replaced in British service by the Pattern 1853. Other smaller purchases were made later.. From the McRae papers, 3,520 were captured running the blockade, and the balance of 11,380 were landed.

The only marks which would identify this piece as Confederate would be on the top of the barrels breech, and the stock marks just in front of the butt plate tang, or a carved period ID in the wood if the barrel marks are not legible. Disassembly is not necessary.

That photo would seal the deal on Confederate or just a nice Pattern 1851 Minie Rifle.

 

[johan_steele]

"johan_steele, post: There should be other stampings on the barrel, butt plate etc. I would expect to see the broad arrow facing broad arrow (point to point sometimes mistaken for a stylized X) on numerous points.[/QUOTE]

There were 10,000 P-51 rifle muskets [obsolete], bought and refurbished by Barnett who then sold them to S. Isaac & Campbell.. These were purchased in August, 1861 from S. Isaac Campbell & Company by the CS government. The Ptn 51's had been replaced in British service by the Pattern 1853. Other smaller purchases were made later.. From the McRae papers, 3,520 were captured running the blockade, and the balance of 11,380 were landed.

The only marks which would identify this piece as Confederate would be on the top of the barrels breech, and the stock marks just in front of the butt plate tang, or a carved period ID in the wood if the barrel marks are not legible. Disassembly is not necessary.

That photo would seal the deal on Confederate or just a nice Pattern 1851 Minie Rifle.

I've handled one P51 with ACW provenance. I don't recall the lock markings but remember the broad arrow markings denoting it had been removed from Brit service. IIRC it had supposedly been picked up as a souvenir at Antitem but I don't recall the specifics and may well be misremembering.

It had been rode hard and put up wet. It was damaged, IIRC something had struck the comb splintering it badly and likely not doing whoever was holding it any good.

 

[OldSarge79]

Am attaching photos.

 

[johan_steele]

An interesting piece.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

I'm going with it being a legit import.
J.

 

[Package4]

Am attaching photos.View attachment 177315 View attachment 177316

Is that a ch1 I see near the butt plate tang, in the circle, if so, very legit. Similar to the previously sold P-53 pictured here from College Hill Arsenal (Courtesy of Tim Prince)

 

[Package4]

I am trying to find information on two markings on my Confederate-imported Pattern 1851 Enfield Minie Rifle. The first is a stamped "NO" on the stock opposite the lock plate. It could be "ND" or even "ON" if viewed from the opposite direction. I am told it may be an assembler's mark. Has anyone seen an identical or similar stamp, perhaps with different letters, on an Enfield or other musket?
Also, there is a "2" stamped on the ramrod, about two inches from the tip. Has anyone seen something similar?View attachment 177251 View attachment 177251 View attachment 177251 View attachment 177254

Could it have been a BO at one time and someone messed with it, the piece should have a BO with an arrow between the letters (Board of Ordinance), it doesn't appear so from the photo.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Thanks OldSarge for the photos, and congratulations. You do have a rare Barnett assembled/refurbished, run through the blockade, Confederate used P51. These were issued early in the War, and most were heavily used. One in the condition of yours is relatively rare.

Barnett had the barrels re-proofed before selling them... thus the additional London proof marks added to the original P51 barrel proofs, which you photographed.

The "CH/1" is the mark of the "viewers" Curtis and Hughes. There are receipts in the McRae papers for payment of the dies being made for their use.

As for the "NO" or "ND" ... he was one of hundreds of finishers who would have done the final stock sanding, polishing, etc...on the original P51. His name is unknown, and really of no importance to the authenticity or value of the gun.

The Board of Ordnance condemnation marks are rarely found on the original barrels. Of those which I've seen, none had the "double cross" as the BO marks came to be known.

 

[captaindrew]

Nice piece, thanks for sharing, and thanks to the gun experts, every Enfield that someone shares I learn something new from you guys about the markings and origins of the Enfields, good stuff.

 

[OldSarge79]

Thanks guys for the information and the confirmation. I have to admit that I wasn't 100 percent convinced when I bought the rifle. Fortuitously, I was able to have one of the contributors to "The English Connection" personally inspect it before I bought it and he unhesitatingly affirmed that it was a legitimate CH-1. The photo I took of the mark several weeks ago, really nailed it for me. Needless to say, I am trying to track down any possible information as to its history.
One last question, does anyone know by chance, what Confederate units were armed with P-1851's ?

 

[Package4]

Thanks guys for the information and the confirmation. I have to admit that I wasn't 100 percent convinced when I bought the rifle. Fortuitously, I was able to have one of the contributors to "The English Connection" personally inspect it before I bought it and he unhesitatingly affirmed that it was a legitimate CH-1. The photo I took of the mark several weeks ago, really nailed it for me. Needless to say, I am trying to track down any possible information as to its history.
One last question, does anyone know by chance, what Confederate units were armed with P-1851's ?

You have one of the contributors to that fine tome on this thread as well, not myself........

 

[OldSarge79]

You have one of the contributors to that fine tome on this thread as well, not myself........

That's excellent. I am indeed honored....twice over.