Manning's Ledge in Rose Woods

[Tom Elmore]

Could it be both? I have thought the initial 3rd Arkansas advance made it to "B" spot on the #5 post by @infomanpa, but the 17th Maine (plus 99 PA, plus Burling's 8 NJ and 115 PA) helped quickly drive back the left of the 3rd Arkansas. However, when Anderson's 59th Georgia came forward, they melded with the 3rd Arkansas and pressed forward again, perhaps to the "A" (northern) ledge, once the Union pressure eased after Burling's regiments moved elsewhere and the 99th Pennsylvania was sent south to the Den.

I've been trying to reconcile the sequence of events with the following source account that has since come to my attention, by Corporal/Sergeant Nathan B. Easton of Company E, 20th Indiana: "We were in the open woods pasture to the south and east of the Wheatfield, and the enemy were only 82 paces actual measure from us when the first shots were fired. They had rocks for cover; we had none." (National Tribune, October 8, 1908, p.7).

It sounds like Easton made a precise measurement on a later occasion - 82 paces is very close (if we accept 30 inches per pace, it is 205 feet) and Easton says the Confederates enjoyed good cover provided by boulders, which sounds a lot like the prominent "A" ledge to me. He says his Company E was on the far right of the 20th Indiana (presumably excluding Companies B and H detached beyond the right). But was it the initial advance by the 3rd Arkansas as Easton indicates, or the subsequent advance made by the combined 3rd Arkansas and 59th Georgia?

 

[infomanpa]

I had considered the possibility that both rock ledges were involved. Point A and B on the above map is about 120 yards apart. How long was the line of battle of the 3rd Arkansas..or the combined line with the 59th Georgia? Could point B have been near the right flank with point A being near the left flank?

 

[Tom Elmore]

I had considered the possibility that both rock ledges were involved. Point A and B on the above map is about 120 yards apart. How long was the line of battle of the 3rd Arkansas..or the combined line with the 59th Georgia? Could point B have been near the right flank with point A being near the left flank?

Yes to your last question. Both the 3rd Arkansas and 59th Georgia were large regiments. The 3rd probably extended their left to cover that open flank initially. When the 59th came up, it reportedly divided into two wings, with some separation between those wings, so it covered an even larger front.

 

[mwalker6043]

It's fun exploring the woods where significant action took place and never meeting anyone else!
The map below shows the location (A) where I believe that the Manning rocks are located. I'm assuming that's also the location of Greg's picture, I will have to investigate when the vegetation and leaves are gone this fall. I think that this location is favored because the records mention Union flanking fire to the left and rear which was in range of the 17th Maine at the south wall of the Wheatfield. Location (B) is out of range of flanking fire.
View attachment 472471

Here are the distances from 17th ME Position to points A & B. Both appear to be in rifle range, but even if the woods were much thinner B might have too many trees to be very effective.

 

[infomanpa]

View attachment 503046View attachment 503047
Here are the distances from 17th ME Position to points A & B. Both appear to be in rifle range, but even if the woods were much thinner B might have too many trees to be very effective.

Agreed. I made my own map below. Each line is 100 yards in length.

 

[121st PA Vols]

Infomanpa. I noticed the yellow line connecting Point A to Point B is very near (especially B, Cross-Brooks Ave) the old trolley line (1893-1917), and more obvious changes with the construction of the avenues. The avenues were major efforts in clearing, rock removals, trees, springs covered, diverted and so forth.
And the trolley line whose bed still runs through Rose Woods and over thru the Slaughter Pen to the front of Devils Den as a hiking trail was greatly elevated in some locations a few feet off the present elevation meaning they did a lot of digging and landscaping in the Rose Woods.
Not saying the 'ledge' is no longer there. Rather, a consideration until you find a candidate you're satisfied with.

 

[infomanpa]

Infomanpa. I noticed the yellow line connecting Point A to Point B is very near (especially B, Cross-Brooks Ave) the old trolley line (1893-1917), and more obvious changes with the construction of the avenues. The avenues were major efforts in clearing, rock removals, trees, springs covered, diverted and so forth.
And the trolley line whose bed still runs through Rose Woods and over thru the Slaughter Pen to the front of Devils Den as a hiking trail was greatly elevated in some locations a few feet off the present elevation meaning they did a lot of digging and landscaping in the Rose Woods.
Not saying the 'ledge' is no longer there. Rather, a consideration until you find a candidate you're satisfied with.

Hmm...interesting point. Thanks. I hadn't thought of that. Since point B is at least 50 yards from the trolley track, I'm thinking that it's distant enough to most likely not have been disturbed during the construction of the track. As far as I know there is no evidence that would indicate otherwise.

 

[dennmorr]

`I created my Manning's Ledge diograph about 15 years ago. I know that I modeled the rocks from a black and white photo labeled Manning's ledge. I can't recall if it was in Smith and Adelman's "Devil's Den" or from a Frassinito book. I am in the process of moving so all my books are in boxes but hopefully I canfind it soon and post it.
Dennis

 

[121st PA Vols]

Hmm...interesting point. Thanks. I hadn't thought of that. Since point B is at least 50 yards from the trolley track, I'm thinking that it's distant enough to most likely not have been disturbed during the construction of the track. As far as I know there is no evidence that would indicate otherwise.

That was just a thought infomanpa. I try to remember as much when trapsing around the field in endless searches for this or that read in a work by a respected individual. A swale, a trace, stone wall, earthworks. There are some earthworks off the beaten path that may appear as a slight rise until pieced together with another remark, fragment, story and so forth. And so it goes.
I'll join the search next visit home when Dennis finds that black and white. Good luck in your search.

 

[Tommyg84]

I've been through Rose Woods again, recently and have been studying more maps. I'm swinging around to thinking that Location B (the southern position) might be right after all. Looking at Laino's map below (red dot marks the rocks), it is possible that flanking fire from Union troops could have reached the 3rd AR from the 99th PA, the 20th IN or even the 17th ME because they were all within the 300 yard rifle range of fire.
View attachment 502952

I'm thinking more and more it's B. A... is just too close and not good cover. If I'm in the Indiana unit I'm killing lots of people with a rifled musket at that distance. I think most people have a tendency to not orient themselves correctly on the Confederate axis of advance... it's a lot more oblique in nature than most people think of it. Look at the 17th Maine and the stone wall.... that wall is almost parallel to the edge of the woods. That Maine unit... if it was using that stone wall for cover, basically had most companies directly facing the Triangle Field. The "Anderson's Brigade" markers on the very end of Cross Ave. I believe are more or less correct in their orientation. And if you face them you are basically walking down the trolley path to the Wheatfield.

The more time I spend at B the more I think that it's not that far from the Union line, and it's more than likely that a unit would take cover further away with good cover than one closer. It is facing the correct way, and what's more is that there's room for at least two mid-war Confederate companies to take cover there, unlike location A which could barely fit 20 men. Location B would allow Confederates almost complete cover from units on Houcks Ridge, and would allow sort of an enfilade fire into the Indiana troops, which would explain their bad day.
In my opinion, one of the reasons the Wheatfield was so horrific with casualties was that there were so many **** flanks to hit and nasty geology to prevent units from deploying properly. It's hard to imagine they fit so many men in there, and as the area becomes choked with the dead and wounded movement becomes more strained. Once you walk into that bowl, you're in range from opposing troops anywhere on the opposite ridge. Both sides. If you're a Confederate soldier standing where Plum Run passes the 8th NJ monument you could fire almost anywhere to your front, from multiple angles and heights.... and hit someone's flank for MOST of the engagement.
I'll probably end up around there at some point today. I'll try to take some photos from B and A to illustrate what I mean.

A word of warning for Gettysburg battlefield walkers. Ticks are bad this year. Really... really... really bad.

 

[infomanpa]

I'm thinking more and more it's B.

The more time I spend at B the more I think that it's not that far from the Union line, and it's more than likely that a unit would take cover further away with good cover than one closer. It is facing the correct way, and what's more is that there's room for at least two mid-war Confederate companies to take cover there, unlike location A which could barely fit 20 men. Location B would allow Confederates almost complete cover from units on Houcks Ridge, and would allow sort of an enfilade fire into the Indiana troops, which would explain their bad day.

Exactly! I also thought that point B could provide more cover for more men. So, you've already been there? I love that spot.

 

[infomanpa]

A word of warning for Gettysburg battlefield walkers. Ticks are bad this year. Really... really... really bad.

Already? You've seen lots of ticks in early April? Usually they don't get going until towards May. I was there a couple weeks ago on a warm day and saw none.

 

[Tommyg84]

I've been through Rose Woods again, recently and have been studying more maps. I'm swinging around to thinking that Location B (the southern position) might be right after all. Looking at Laino's map below (red dot marks the rocks), it is possible that flanking fire from Union troops could have reached the 3rd AR from the 99th PA, the 20th IN or even the 17th ME because they were all within the 300 yard rifle range of fire.
View attachment 502952

It's definitely right. There's absolutely no way A provides cover from Indiana AND it's close enough to the stone wall to take enflide fire itself... it's just not significant enough of a feature to be remembered as anything. It is however the first high ground when you move through Rose Woods from the 17th ME stone wall.

B provides enough cover from Ward on Houcks Ridge to be a place to stay at. I parked my white car there yesterday by the tree line just beyond the Triangle and couldn't see it from B.... and it's march. However... I could clearly see down cross/Brooke ave into the left of the union line.

We aren't really talking about much ground here. I wonder is the "Ledge of Rocks" is both A and B. It basically is just one feature.... a knoll accentuated by some significant rock features.

The attached photos are from B looking down the supposed "ledge of rocks" and towards Houcks Ridge. The less impressive photos at the end are.... you guess it site A.

There's also two photos looking down the park road towards site B. I can see the Indiana memorial in both if i look to my right, but Houcks Ridge, and my car.... are far away and hard to see.

 

[Tommyg84]

Exactly! I also thought that point B could provide more cover for more men. So, you've already been there? I love that spot.

It's right off the road... many times. Site A just isn't that significant and it's probably within range of troops at the 17th Maine original position.... on the **** flank

 

[dennmorr]

`I created my Manning's Ledge diograph about 15 years ago. I know that I modeled the rocks from a black and white photo labeled Manning's ledge. I can't recall if it was in Smith and Adelman's "Devil's Den" or from a Frassinito book. I am in the process of moving so all my books are in boxes but hopefully I canfind it soon and post it.
DennisView attachment 503300

I did some unpacking and found "Devils Den" by Garry Adelman and Tim Smith and that was where I had seen Manning's Ledge.

They also had a map which shows the ledge at "Point B"

When the 3rd Arkansas got within range of Ward's Brigade the 86th NY fired and then advanced along with the 20th Indiana and 99th Pa. I believe that the initial flanking fire came from the 99th Pa. Later on when the 1st Texas slid into Rose Woods the 3rd Arkansas also slid to the north. At this point the flanking fire from the 17th Maine might have been in play. By then the 99th Pa. had moved out of line to attack along the top o Houck's ridge. I of course defer to the better minds on this board.

 

[Tom Elmore]

My take is that the Adelman map is not bad, but the left flank of the 3rd Arkansas likely extended further north than shown to be a fair target for the 17th Maine. I also think three of Burling's regiments (8 NJ-115 PA-6 NJ) initially were further east down the wall from the 17th Maine and contributed fire against the left of the 3rd Arkansas, and that Ward's 99 PA-20 IN-86 NY did not immediately advance as shown, but actually began a bit further to the east and ended up about where Adelman places them initially. The left of 3rd Arkansas was clearly under much more pressure from the outset. Capt. Gilbreath of 20 IN wrote that firing began at 200 yards, but later on that distance closed considerably per Easton of 20 IN. Below is my interpretation, and note that the extended segment shown along the 3 AR line is meant to correspond with ledge B.

 

[Tommyg84]

I did some unpacking and found "Devils Den" by Garry Adelman and Tim Smith and that was where I had seen Manning's Ledge.
View attachment 503995
They also had a map which shows the ledge at "Point B"

View attachment 503996

When the 3rd Arkansas got within range of Ward's Brigade the 86th NY fired and then advanced along with the 20th Indiana and 99th Pa. I believe that the initial flanking fire came from the 99th Pa. Later on when the 1st Texas slid into Rose Woods the 3rd Arkansas also slid to the north. At this point the flanking fire from the 17th Maine might have been in play. By then the 99th Pa. had moved out of line to attack along the top o Houck's ridge. I of course defer to the better minds on this board.

Oh that's B

 

[Tommyg84]

I did some unpacking and found "Devils Den" by Garry Adelman and Tim Smith and that was where I had seen Manning's Ledge.
View attachment 503995
They also had a map which shows the ledge at "Point B"

View attachment 503996

When the 3rd Arkansas got within range of Ward's Brigade the 86th NY fired and then advanced along with the 20th Indiana and 99th Pa. I believe that the initial flanking fire came from the 99th Pa. Later on when the 1st Texas slid into Rose Woods the 3rd Arkansas also slid to the north. At this point the flanking fire from the 17th Maine might have been in play. By then the 99th Pa. had moved out of line to attack along the top o Houck's ridge. I of course defer to the better minds on this board.

Who knows... but Mannings Ledge... as referenced in accounts... is definitely B. Also... there's 0 chance any organized infantry could approach A at that axis to find it a suitable defensive position.

After walking Rose Woods now for a few weeks Mannings Ledge is location B just off the road. I'm 95% sure.

 

[KyCollector]

This area has always been a bit personal to me as my Great Great Uncle fought there with the 86th NY. I have had some pleasant conversations with some of Van Noy Manning's descendants who viewed my work.
Dennis

My gt-gt-grandfather was in Co H 3rd Arkansas, and was wounded and left on the field on July 2, to be captured. I always imagined perhaps he was left near Manning's Ledge.