Lt Col Harold G Moore quote.

Waterloo50

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A few questions about a quote made by Lt Col Moore of La Drang fame.

"In the American Civil War it was a matter of principle that a good officer rode his horse as little as possible. There were sound reasons for this. If you are riding and your soldiers are marching, how can you judge how tired they are, how thirsty, how heavy their packs weigh on their shoulders?"
Harold G. Moore, We Were Soldiers Once . . . and Young.

The quote itself makes perfect sense to me but to be honest I can't recall reading any examples of this, I can think of plenty of examples where officers dismounted and fought along side the men under their command but did CW officers really give up their mount to march alongside their men over long distances and suffer the same hardships. Lt Col Moore says that it was a matter of principle, what does that actually mean, does it mean there was an unwritten code of honour or was it military doctrine. Can anyone offer examples of officers giving up their benefit/privilege to suffer along side their men and finally, would it have been wise for an officer to suffer hardship given the weight of responsibility that they were tasked with?
 
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A few questions about a quote made by Lt Col Moore of La Drang fame.

"In the American Civil War it was a matter of principle that a good officer rode his horse as little as possible. There were sound reasons for this. If you are riding and your soldiers are marching, how can you judge how tired they are, how thirsty, how heavy their packs weigh on their shoulders?"
Harold G. Moore, We Were Soldiers Once . . . and Young.

The quote itself makes perfect sense to me but to be honest I can't recall reading any examples of this, I can think of plenty of examples where officers dismounted and fought along side the men under their command but did CW officers really give up their mount to march alongside their men over long distances and suffer the same hardships. Lt Col Moore says that it was a matter of principle, what does that actually mean, does it mean there was an unwritten code of honour or was it military doctrine. Can anyone offer examples of officers giving up their benefit/privilege to suffer along side their men and finally, would it have been wise for an officer to suffer hardship given the weight of responsibility that they were tasked with?
I have five Civil War biographies of enlisted men and if memory serves no one mentioned an officer walking their horse out empathy for their men be they Confederate or Union.
Not saying it didn't ever happen out of thousands of officers on both sides.
If anyone knew it most likely would be @unionblue ,@cash ,@johan_steele ,@Saphroneth or @67th Tigers .
If these guys don't have examples then maybe walking instead of riding may never of happened.
Leftyhunter
 
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a1ce0a9dc288e5bb7caac3cdd6a2c852--british-colonial-civil-wars.jpg


A few questions about a quote made by Lt Col Moore of La Drang fame.

"In the American Civil War it was a matter of principle that a good officer rode his horse as little as possible. There were sound reasons for this. If you are riding and your soldiers are marching, how can you judge how tired they are, how thirsty, how heavy their packs weigh on their shoulders?"
Harold G. Moore, We Were Soldiers Once . . . and Young.

The quote itself makes perfect sense to me but to be honest I can't recall reading any examples of this, I can think of plenty of examples where officers dismounted and fought along side the men under their command but did CW officers really give up their mount to march alongside their men over long distances and suffer the same hardships. Lt Col Moore says that it was a matter of principle, what does that actually mean, does it mean there was an unwritten code of honour or was it military doctrine. Can anyone offer examples of officers giving up their benefit/privilege to suffer along side their men and finally, would it have been wise for an officer to suffer hardship given the weight of responsibility that they were tasked with?
By the way did Moore ever compare the Communist Vietnamese forces to any aspect of the Civil War especially counterinsurgency?
Leftyhunter
 
I have five Civil War biographies of rusted men and if memory serves no one mentioned an officer walking their horse out empathy for their men be they Confederate or Union.
Not saying it didn't ever happen out of thousands of officers on both sides.
If anyone knew it most likely would be @unionblue ,@cash ,@johan_steele ,@Saphroneth or @67th Tigers .
If these guys don't have examples then maybe walking instead of riding may never of happened.
Leftyhunter
I think that any officer that was willing to give up a few luxuries to rough it with his men would have been highly thought of by the ordinary soldier but then there could have been a problem in that officers were expected to behave like gentlemen. I don't know how it was with the officer class during the CW but British officers of the same period wouldn't have roughed it, there was great emphasis on making a clear distinction between officers and the enlisted men.
 
General Dick Garnett, leading his men from a horse at Pickett's Charge, where he was killed during the charge. He had his reasons, is the fact he was not well. He had been kicked by a horse, and running a fever, when could not walk, so he rode to his death. He was also fighting for his honor in his mind, stemming back to Kernstown and the aborted court martial in volving Stonewall Jackson. It was a matter of honor.
 
He'd have to be carrying a backpack and rifle, eating and sleeping just the same, etc. to really know. On the other hand, it would be easier on his horse if he only mounted when he needed to.

Do I recall correctly Joshua Chamberlain in the movie Gettysburg walking and telling one of his brothers that it was so he could judge the men's condition?

Erwin Rommel in WWII is said to have eaten the same rations as his men during operations, for the same reason. One anecdote concerns a British officer POW during the battle of Gazala complaining that his men weren't getting enough water, maybe a pint a day, to which Rommel responded that that was the same as his men, and himself.

In the movie Battle of the Bulge, German Colonel Hessler (Robert Shaw) turns down a nice meal prepared by his batman, giving the same rationale.
 
By the way did Moore ever compare the Communist Vietnamese forces to any aspect of the Civil War especially counterinsurgency?
Leftyhunter
I haven't seen any quotes from him about that but he certainly respected his enemy. Moore very often quoted both Sherman and Grant.
 
By the way did Moore ever compare the Communist Vietnamese forces to any aspect of the Civil War especially counterinsurgency?
Leftyhunter
There was this thought/quote by Moore
It was the final act of a North Vietnamese soldier who was killed. Before he died he took a hand grenade and held it against the stock of his weapon. Then he had gotten on his knees and bent over double. If anybody tried to get his weapon they were going to activate that hand grenade. When I saw the dedication of those two Vietnamese with their hand grenades, I said to myself: We are up against an enemy who is going to make this a very long year."
Harold G. Moore, We Were Soldiers Once . . . and Young: Ia Drang-The Battle That Changed the War in Vietnam
 
I don't have the exact words handy, but in the introduction to his book, Moore dedicates it to the men with whom he served, then concludes with approximately:

"And while those who have never been soldiers may find this hard to understand, this book is also dedicated to the men of the 33rd, 66th, and 320th Regiments of the Peoples' Army of Vietnam who died by our hand in that place. They too fought for their country. They were worthy opponents. We who killed them pray that their bones were recovered from that desolate place where we left them and taken home for decent and honorable burial."
 
Can anyone offer examples of officers giving up their benefit/privilege to suffer along side their men and finally, would it have been wise for an officer to suffer hardship given the weight of responsibility that they were tasked with?
See, here's an interesting thing and a contrast between British and US armies - it was noticed by British observers that US officers shared in a lot of the roles of the men, but didn't care for them nearly as well.


The Yankee officers although they drink, associate, sleep and fight with their men, do not take the slightest interest of care for their men, and every-one looks out for himself, no one for the public good or his men's welfare... At the end of a day's march the officers look out for themselves; never see that their men are properly and completely encamped, or fed, much less that the poor horses are fed or looked after; that the men's arms, accoutrements, or artillery or cavalry harness is cleaned or repaired": Captain Edward Osborne Hewett, RE, 3 December 1862, from R. A. Preston, 'A Letter from a British Military Observer of the American Civil War,' Military Affairs, vol. 16 (Summer 1952), p.49-60


This probably contrasted quite strongly because in the Crimean War there was a massive supply screw up during the Eupatoria landing (there was a storm after the fighting echelon disembarked, so the supplies were still aboard ship) and so the general officers ended up doing things like sleeping under turned-over carts or just riding about for hours in the rain. IIRC one general officer (the Duke of Cambridge?) ended up having a real time of it at sea.

ED: here we go:


"The oldest soldiers never witnessed nor heard of a campaign in which general officers were obliged to live out in tents in the open field, for the want of a roof to cover them, and generals who passed their youth in the Peninsular war, and who had witnessed a good deal of fighting since that time in various parts of the world, were unanimous in declaring that they never knew or read of a war in which the officers were exposed to such hardships." (Russell of the Times, C Chapman)
"The Duke of Cambridge, sick and depressed, was passing an anxious time of it in the Retribution, off Balaklava, in all the horrors of that dreadful scene at sea- in fact all the generals and colonels and officers in the field were just as badly off as the meanest private."
"Sir George Brown slept under a cart tilted over. The Duke of Cambridge (First Division), wrapped in a waterproof coat, spent most of the night riding about among his men. Sir de Lacy Evans (Second Division) was the only general whose staff had been careful enough to provide him with a tent."
(Despatches from the Crimea, WH Russell)
"By a merciful interposition of providence we have been saved from a watery grave, and nothing but a miracle saved us... It was a fearful gale & we had a more dreadful 24 hours of it than we ever spent. It carried away two anchors and our rudder; [we] had to throw over all our upper deck guns & then we had to hold on by one anchor 200 yards ffrom the rocks which by a merciful providence held us on." (Duke of Cambridge, quoted in the National Army Museum Book of the Crimean War). 21 ships were wrecked in this storm.
"When the surgeon of the Scots Fusilier Guards complained to his servant that his shirt was full of lice, the servant replied, "The Duke of Cambridge is covered with them, sir." (Redcoat, Richard Holmes).


Essentially what you had was that US army officers had generally gained their position (as officers) through popularity contests - i.e. elections - in newly raised units, while British army officers were of a different and higher social class to their men. This led in British units to greater social stratification, but it also led to a strong sense of nobliesse oblige and the generally superior British food, pay and medical arrangements in the Victorian period - not compared to the US specifically but to other armies in general.
 
There was this thought/quote by Moore
It was the final act of a North Vietnamese soldier who was killed. Before he died he took a hand grenade and held it against the stock of his weapon. Then he had gotten on his knees and bent over double. If anybody tried to get his weapon they were going to activate that hand grenade. When I saw the dedication of those two Vietnamese with their hand grenades, I said to myself: We are up against an enemy who is going to make this a very long year."
Harold G. Moore, We Were Soldiers Once . . . and Young: Ia Drang-The Battle That Changed the War in Vietnam
Hand grenades were from what I gather rarely used in the Civil War. About the closest equivalent was the mass bayonet rush with a high chance of being shot or blown way from artillery. Now doubt both conflicts had many dedicated soldiers
Leftyhunter
 
Incidentally, the point about horses is an interesting one - the Civil War was absolute murder on horses, especially horses in the wagon trains. Estimates of equine casualties range from 1 to 3 million, and a lot of this is because of poor horse care (even the low estimate is twice the number of British horses killed in the entirety of WW1, and the British army of WW1 was a lot bigger!)
 
Incidents as Moore mention abound on both sides. The difference between a good officer and a bad. The good ones are willing to get in the mud with their men and share the same hardships.

A British officer would contend that a good officer is one who ensures that his men are well taken care of. Wellington, for example, was arguably the best general the country's ever produced and was loved by his men as a superb officer from regimental to army command, but he certainly didn't 'get in the mud' with the men, he was too busy arranging for them to be well taken care of!
 
Hand grenades were from what I gather rarely used in the Civil War. About the closest equivalent was the mass bayonet rush with a high chance of being shot or blown way from artillery. Now doubt both conflicts had many dedicated soldiers
Leftyhunter
Kind of obvious about grenades, I was thinking more about how Moore viewed his enemy, he didn't have contempt for them, he respected them and that makes him a smart commander. To get back to my OP, I wonder if there are any CW officers comparable to Hal Moore, I'm talking about his mind set although if you read Saphroneths post on attitudes from the officer class there was a clear distinction between men and officers, I'm awaiting others to respond to Saphroneths post on how British observers viewed American officers, should be intresting.
 
A British officer would contend that a good officer is one who ensures that his men are well taken care of. Wellington, for example, was arguably the best general the country's ever produced and was loved by his men as a superb officer from regimental to army command, but he certainly didn't 'get in the mud' with the men, he was too busy arranging for them to be well taken care of!
These British observers, what was it that they observed or didn't observe that made them reach the conclusion that US officers didn't care for their men in the way in which British officers would? Couldn't that just be a cultural difference, I find it hard to believe that US officers didn't have the welfare of their men as a priority.
 
Hal Moore was a soldiers officer. He knew the difference between an officer that shares the same hardships and dangers of his men vs one that hides in the rear avoiding dirt and danger. One is an actual soldier while the other is a dandy playing at soldier. Things have been that way since antiquity; I expect they'll be that way to the end of time.
 
These British observers, what was it that they observed or didn't observe that made them reach the conclusion that US officers didn't care for their men in the way in which British officers would? Couldn't that just be a cultural difference, I find it hard to believe that US officers didn't have the welfare of their men as a priority.
Pretty much as they say - that after the march ends they go and sort out their own billeting and let the men sort out their own billeting. A British officer would see that their men are seen to first.

It's quite possibly something that improved over the course of the war, but certainly it's not the only account suggesting that the US Military (having to expand radically and fight a war at the same time) was having trouble, at least early on.
They also seem to have had trouble taking criticism. William Howard Russell's reporting from the Crimea resulted in public outcry and military reforms; his reporting from the Union resulted in death threats and a refusal of press credentials.
 
He knew the difference between an officer that shares the same hardships and dangers of his men vs one that hides in the rear avoiding dirt and danger. One is an actual soldier while the other is a dandy playing at soldier.
The duty of an officer is to run his unit. The duty of an officer above the regimental level is to avoid any unnecessary danger so they can fight their battle, and given the lacklustre NCOs in the US army (inevitably, the NCOs hadn't got any more experience than their men) the regimental officer's probably the main thing holding the regiment cohesive - so they should probably avoid undue danger as well.

That's not to say that courage isn't a positive quality in an officer - it certainly is - but the chain of command is what distinguishes an army from a mob, and maintaining it is important.
 

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