Lost Fleet....CSS Virginia II

[rebelatsea]

Or so that was William A. Parker's assertion...

I've mentioned elsewhere that I playtested a minatures rule set at a local game shop a number of years ago-- I don't think the rule set ever saw publication, but it used the Thoroughbred 1:600 range-- and I had the Fredericksburg and Richmond, another fellow had the Virginia II, and the Union player was given the Onondaga and (ahistorically) the Atlanta. If the results were anything to go by, I think we proved that, if the Confederate ironclads don't have trouble with grounding and if their attack is pressed home. they could break through to City Point. As the scenario played out, Virginia II drew off Onondaga, while my two ironclads did not pause to engage either Union ironclad but just fired on the fly as they charged downriver.

I wonder how it would have gone had Semmes been in command, rather than Mitchell. But it's definitely true that the Confederate James River ironclads had challenges maneuvering in "their own" river.

When I was in the Naval Wargame Society UK, we played that scenario out, but making use of the torpedo boats to deal with Onondaga. we used a set I wrote, which I found are still in print, available on Amazon.

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

So what do you think, John? If Semmes had had command of the squadron instead of Mitchell, do you think he would have acted more aggressively? Or do you think they still would have been held up by groundings, etc.?

 

[Dilandu]

If the results were anything to go by, I think we proved that, if the Confederate ironclads don't have trouble with grounding and if their attack is pressed home. they could break through to City Point.

I think the main problem for them would be to use their numerical advantage in river conditions. "Onondaga", if i'm not mistaken, was much more maneuvrable, and have a lesser draft than at least "Virginia II". She would be capable of retreating downstream, and pounding the Confederacy ironclads during that.

 

[rebelatsea]

So what do you think, John? If Semmes had had command of the squadron instead of Mitchell, do you think he would have acted more aggressively? Or do you think they still would have been held up by groundings, etc.?

Depending on what remit Mallory gave him ,I think he would have been more aggressive yes, but there's no guessing about the grounding etc, I guess that might still have happened. I don't think there is any excuse for it though, the James was their river and the pilots ought to have known what they were doing.

 

[rebelatsea]

I think the main problem for them would be to use their numerical advantage in river conditions. "Onondaga", if i'm not mistaken, was much more maneuvrable, and have a lesser draft than at least "Virginia II". She would be capable of retreating downstream, and pounding the Confederacy ironclads during that.

That's why we ( me in this case ) went after her with the torpedo boats ! However we didn't sink her, torpedoed in the stern, CSS Richmond pushed her ashore where she surrendered. At close quarters with a mobile enemy her slow firing big guns are not an asset !

 

[Dilandu]

That's why we ( me in this case ) went after her with the torpedo boats !

I'm not sure it would actually work against moving monitor - even in the river. As i recall, there is no examples of moving ships being sucsessfully attacked by the spar torpedo boats. Moreover, i could recall the russian-turkish engagemen on Danube in 1878, when a couple of russian torpedo launches attacked the turkish monitor. She simply go away from them, firing grapeshots and shrapnels, and sending crewmens with rifles on the turrets.

I think, the "Onondaga" would do something like that. She would place one gunboat nearby to screen her, and user riflemens on the turret roofs to make things difficult for the torpedo boats. Also, there is "Spuyten Duyvil" nearby, who could charge the confederacy ironclad - and due to her armor, she seems to have much better chances to achieve hit than usual torpedo boat.

So, i think the best strategy for Union would be to charge the "Spyuten Duyvil" toward the Confederacy ironclads, to keep them away - and screen the "Onondaga" with the gunboats. It should gave enough time to deal with torpedo boats, that wouldn't have the ironclads cover.

 

[Mild53]

I

Here is a link the Lost Fleet or James River Squadron which was sunk in the latter days of the war. There was a CSS Virginia II was one of the ironclads in the squadron. Why she go out and take on the union blockade fleet like her name sake did? She was suppose to be similar in design to her name sake.


http://www.numa.net/expeditions/lost-confederate-fleet/

Interesting thread! Think of the folks who contributed to the construction of the Virginia, only to not have the ship ever effctively used.

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

I

Interesting thread! Think of the folks who contributed to the construction of the Virginia, only to not have the ship ever effctively used.

There's a story that Confederate Navy Secretary Mallory gave a tour of some naval facilities to a group of ladies. At the end of the tour, he asked if there was anything they hadn't seen. One responded, "Where you blow them up."

 

[5fish]

There's a story that Confederate Navy Secretary Mallory gave a tour of some naval facilities to a group of ladies. At the end of the tour, he asked if there was anything they hadn't seen. One responded, "Where you blow them up."

Every story about a Confederate gunboat ends with the crew scuttling it except for one. That one gets sunk in a daring night sneak attack.

 

[DaveBrt]

Every story about a Confederate gunboat ends with the crew scuttling it except for one. That one gets sunk in a daring night sneak attack.

Albemarle? Atlanta? Manassas?

 

[rebelatsea]

I'm not sure it would actually work against moving monitor - even in the river. As i recall, there is no examples of moving ships being sucsessfully attacked by the spar torpedo boats. Moreover, i could recall the russian-turkish engagemen on Danube in 1878, when a couple of russian torpedo launches attacked the turkish monitor. She simply go away from them, firing grapeshots and shrapnels, and sending crewmens with rifles on the turrets.

I think, the "Onondaga" would do something like that. She would place one gunboat nearby to screen her, and user riflemens on the turret roofs to make things difficult for the torpedo boats. Also, there is "Spuyten Duyvil" nearby, who could charge the confederacy ironclad - and due to her armor, she seems to have much better chances to achieve hit than usual torpedo boat.

So, I think the best strategy for Union would be to charge the "Spyuten Duyvil" toward the Confederacy ironclads, to keep them away - and screen the "Onondaga" with the gunboats. It should gave enough time to deal with torpedo boats, that wouldn't have the ironclads cover.

Well it did work ! In the game Onondaga did not turn down river but headed towards the obstructions, Spuyten Duyvil was not effective at all and was sunk by Fredericksburg. I don't recall the US gunboats or USS Atlanta becoming engaged at all.
I had notes of most of our ACW games and some photos, but they have been lost over the years .

 

[Dilandu]

Spuyten Duyvil was not effective at all and was sunk by Fredericksburg.

Seems strange that she wasn't doing anything. At least, the threat of torpedo boat would force the CSN ironclads to be cautious.

 

[rebelatsea]

Seems strange that she wasn't doing anything. At least, the threat of torpedo boat would force the CSN ironclads to be cautious.

As I say I wish I'd kept the notes, but entirely from memory she was being used a a forward picket when Fredericksburg charged through the obstructions, didn't get much chance really !

 

[Dilandu]

but entirely from memory she was being used a a forward picket when Fredericksburg charged through the obstructions, didn't get much chance really !

She was armored almost as monitor, and quite agile. I really doubt that "Fredericksburg" have any real chances to deal with her quickly.

 

[bradford011]

Beautiful drawing of VIRGINIA II, will you be doing RICHMOND and FREDERICKSBURG as well?

 

[OwenRichards]

This is the first time I've seen any kind of representation of her apart from the photo of her smokestack that was taken post-scuttling.

 

[rebelatsea]

Beautiful drawing of VIRGINIA II, will you be doing RICHMOND and FREDERICKSBURG as well?

Here you go> CSS Richmond.

 

[rebelatsea]

CSS Fredericksburg.

 

[bradford011]

Many thanks for those!