Loading an 1851 Colt Navy

[Noonanda]

Maybe it wasnt an issue with a connodial ball? Were the pistol balls like mini minis lol pun intended and the base would flare upon ignition and seal the chambers?

no pistol bullets had solid bases, both the.36 and .44 cal

 

[Scrubby]

I'd address a few points raised. I am in possession of a CW pistol, a Remington accepted by the War Dept in January of 1864. I have returned it to full function and have put several hundred rounds through it.

My desire for accurate and period-correct ammunition got me in touch with Mark Hubbs, of Eras Gone. I bought a Johnston and Dow mold and began casting my own bullets. I use hemp cigarette papers and build my own cartridges. It makes reloading in the field fairly practical, and I carried the old relic as a sidearm during rifle season this year.

If I may be indulged, I'd share my personal experience with chainfires. I'm 50 years old, started shooting BP pistols 30 years ago, I've never had a chainfire event in thousands of rounds fired. I've rarely lubed over my bullet's, except in the event I intended to leave a cylinder loaded for an extended period of storage or in readiness for self-defense. Now that I use conical bullets and paper cartridges that are tallow-dipped, I don't grease over a load intended for storage. I've never pulled a bullet due to failed loads either and I would speculate that folks experiencing chainfire events or loads failing to properly ignite are allowing themselves to be rushed or ignoring basic steps in safe use of a wonderful type of weapon. Thoroughly enjoying this forum, btw, and all the enthusiasm and experience being shared. This is special.

 

[sourdough]

Scrubby,

Thanks for your post! I agree entirely with your observations about chainfires. I believe most are caused by ill-fitting caps and occur at the rear of the cylinder, but I have not had the displeasure of it happening to me.

Regards,

Jim

 

[Story]

This is special.

*Squint* What's in that scabbard?

 

[Story]

Ordinarily I'd happily site sources, but bear with me as I work from memory. Revolvers on both sides were a high demand item and I recollect that higher-than-Regiment Ordnance officers got irate at troops whose battlefield pickups were not being turned in for official re-issue. If the Regiment was a single-revolver issue, you got one pistola.

Irregular units? YMMV.

 

[Scrubby]

*Squint* What's in that scabbard?

Model 1873 in 44wcf. I like old stuff. Really like using old stuff!

 

[99octane]

I know this is powerful necroposting, but I believe it may be of some interest to someone.
PAPER CARTRIDGES.
Preloaded paper cartridges were very common in civil war era, but revolver cartridges were very different in composition and use from musket cartridges. While the latter were made with heavy, stout, long fiber paper and meant to be opened, powder poured in the barrel and paper used as wad, revolver paper cartridges were made out of nitrated paper. They were thicker and far more robust than revolver paper cartridges made with cigarette-like paper today. They were meant to be loaded as they were, and they burned completely in the chamber.

RELOADING
Reloading a cap-and-ball with paper cartridges wasn't much slower than reloading a SAA: you just pressed the paper cartridges in the chamber and capped the nipples with a capper. Compared with ejecting spent cases and reloading, it's a slower process, but not that much. The custom of carrying two revolvers came from the times of cap and ball: far much faster to draw a second, loaded gun than reloading the first one (what today is called a "New York reload").

GREASE, BULLETS AND CHAINFIRES.
Vintage bullets were all lubricated. They had deeper grease grooves than modern bullets.
There's no evidence of grease being added in front of the bullet itself. Field tests also proved that most of the soft grease smeared in front of the bullet in chambers gets sprayed away at the first firing of the gun, due to recoil and gas escaping from the cylinder gap.
Chain fires are caused either by loose primers or by "dirty" loading practices that leave the face of the cylinder dirty with powder, which can get trapped between ball and cylinder wall, and transmit the fire from the firing of one chamber to the adjacent one.
Wiping the cylinder face of any grease residue and "clean" reloading techniques avoiding to pepper the cylinder face with powder do marvels to prevent chain firing.

Bullets had deep, wide grease grooves that were greased with tallow and beeswax that helped keep powder residue soft.

With spherical bullets it's better to put a disc of hard BP grease between powder and bullet, than greasing the face of the cylinder.
It's FAR less messy, and keeps the powder residues far softer and the barrel cleaner.
Grease in front of the bullet gets sprayed away as said, and gets anyway pushed out of the barrel by the bullet, leaving hard caked carbon residue behind.
What (solid) grease between powder and ball does is different: upon firing, it gets vaporized by heat and pressure, mixed with the burning gases, and leaves behind the bullet a layer of carbon residues mixed with grease.
This is very soft, so soft that you can actually mop it out of the bore, leaving a clean barrel.
Military loads didn't need it as they used conical bullets with deep grease grooves, using the same grease.

Do not use "creamy" greases! Grease must be hard enough to be solid at room temperature, so as not to contaminate powder. I tried 50% beeswax, 50% vegetable margarine (originally tallow was used) with excellent results it was smelted in a shallow tray, then I used a section of 45 case as cookie cutter to cut grease "pills" for use in my Uberti Walker.
I shot dozens of 44 grains FFFg + round ball shots with the barrel still comparatively clean afterwards.

CLEANING (after proper greasing)
I cleaned up the gun just by mopping out the residues, without using ANY water or solvent, and lubed it with jojoba oil (which is almost equivalent to the sperm whale oil used back then). No traces of rust after repeated firing and a couple years sitting in my safe.


This page has lots of interesting information about effectively greasing and preventing chainfires.
Hope it helps.

http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/RevolverMobile.html

 

[JOHN42768]

I know this is powerful necroposting, but I believe it may be of some interest to someone.
PAPER CARTRIDGES.
Preloaded paper cartridges were very common in civil war era, but revolver cartridges were very different in composition and use from musket cartridges. While the latter were made with heavy, stout, long fiber paper and meant to be opened, powder poured in the barrel and paper used as wad, revolver paper cartridges were made out of nitrated paper. They were thicker and far more robust than revolver paper cartridges made with cigarette-like paper today. They were meant to be loaded as they were, and they burned completely in the chamber.

RELOADING
Reloading a cap-and-ball with paper cartridges wasn't much slower than reloading a SAA: you just pressed the paper cartridges in the chamber and capped the nipples with a capper. Compared with ejecting spent cases and reloading, it's a slower process, but not that much. The custom of carrying two revolvers came from the times of cap and ball: far much faster to draw a second, loaded gun than reloading the first one (what today is called a "New York reload").

GREASE, BULLETS AND CHAINFIRES.
Vintage bullets were all lubricated. They had deeper grease grooves than modern bullets.
There's no evidence of grease being added in front of the bullet itself. Field tests also proved that most of the soft grease smeared in front of the bullet in chambers gets sprayed away at the first firing of the gun, due to recoil and gas escaping from the cylinder gap.
Chain fires are caused either by loose primers or by "dirty" loading practices that leave the face of the cylinder dirty with powder, which can get trapped between ball and cylinder wall, and transmit the fire from the firing of one chamber to the adjacent one.
Wiping the cylinder face of any grease residue and "clean" reloading techniques avoiding to pepper the cylinder face with powder do marvels to prevent chain firing.

Bullets had deep, wide grease grooves that were greased with tallow and beeswax that helped keep powder residue soft.

With spherical bullets it's better to put a disc of hard BP grease between powder and bullet, than greasing the face of the cylinder.
It's FAR less messy, and keeps the powder residues far softer and the barrel cleaner.
Grease in front of the bullet gets sprayed away as said, and gets anyway pushed out of the barrel by the bullet, leaving hard caked carbon residue behind.
What (solid) grease between powder and ball does is different: upon firing, it gets vaporized by heat and pressure, mixed with the burning gases, and leaves behind the bullet a layer of carbon residues mixed with grease.
This is very soft, so soft that you can actually mop it out of the bore, leaving a clean barrel.
Military loads didn't need it as they used conical bullets with deep grease grooves, using the same grease.

Do not use "creamy" greases! Grease must be hard enough to be solid at room temperature, so as not to contaminate powder. I tried 50% beeswax, 50% vegetable margarine (originally tallow was used) with excellent results it was smelted in a shallow tray, then I used a section of 45 case as cookie cutter to cut grease "pills" for use in my Uberti Walker.
I shot dozens of 44 grains FFFg + round ball shots with the barrel still comparatively clean afterwards.

CLEANING (after proper greasing)
I cleaned up the gun just by mopping out the residues, without using ANY water or solvent, and lubed it with jojoba oil (which is almost equivalent to the sperm whale oil used back then). No traces of rust after repeated firing and a couple years sitting in my safe.


This page has lots of interesting information about effectively greasing and preventing chainfires.
Hope it helps.

http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/RevolverMobile.

I know this is powerful necroposting, but I believe it may be of some interest to someone.
PAPER CARTRIDGES.
Preloaded paper cartridges were very common in civil war era, but revolver cartridges were very different in composition and use from musket cartridges. While the latter were made with heavy, stout, long fiber paper and meant to be opened, powder poured in the barrel and paper used as wad, revolver paper cartridges were made out of nitrated paper. They were thicker and far more robust than revolver paper cartridges made with cigarette-like paper today. They were meant to be loaded as they were, and they burned completely in the chamber.

RELOADING
Reloading a cap-and-ball with paper cartridges wasn't much slower than reloading a SAA: you just pressed the paper cartridges in the chamber and capped the nipples with a capper. Compared with ejecting spent cases and reloading, it's a slower process, but not that much. The custom of carrying two revolvers came from the times of cap and ball: far much faster to draw a second, loaded gun than reloading the first one (what today is called a "New York reload").

GREASE, BULLETS AND CHAINFIRES.
Vintage bullets were all lubricated. They had deeper grease grooves than modern bullets.
There's no evidence of grease being added in front of the bullet itself. Field tests also proved that most of the soft grease smeared in front of the bullet in chambers gets sprayed away at the first firing of the gun, due to recoil and gas escaping from the cylinder gap.
Chain fires are caused either by loose primers or by "dirty" loading practices that leave the face of the cylinder dirty with powder, which can get trapped between ball and cylinder wall, and transmit the fire from the firing of one chamber to the adjacent one.
Wiping the cylinder face of any grease residue and "clean" reloading techniques avoiding to pepper the cylinder face with powder do marvels to prevent chain firing.

Bullets had deep, wide grease grooves that were greased with tallow and beeswax that helped keep powder residue soft.

With spherical bullets it's better to put a disc of hard BP grease between powder and bullet, than greasing the face of the cylinder.
It's FAR less messy, and keeps the powder residues far softer and the barrel cleaner.
Grease in front of the bullet gets sprayed away as said, and gets anyway pushed out of the barrel by the bullet, leaving hard caked carbon residue behind.
What (solid) grease between powder and ball does is different: upon firing, it gets vaporized by heat and pressure, mixed with the burning gases, and leaves behind the bullet a layer of carbon residues mixed with grease.
This is very soft, so soft that you can actually mop it out of the bore, leaving a clean barrel.
Military loads didn't need it as they used conical bullets with deep grease grooves, using the same grease.

Do not use "creamy" greases! Grease must be hard enough to be solid at room temperature, so as not to contaminate powder. I tried 50% beeswax, 50% vegetable margarine (originally tallow was used) with excellent results it was smelted in a shallow tray, then I used a section of 45 case as cookie cutter to cut grease "pills" for use in my Uberti Walker.
I shot dozens of 44 grains FFFg + round ball shots with the barrel still comparatively clean afterwards.

CLEANING (after proper greasing)
I cleaned up the gun just by mopping out the residues, without using ANY water or solvent, and lubed it with jojoba oil (which is almost equivalent to the sperm whale oil used back then). No traces of rust after repeated firing and a couple years sitting in my safe.


This page has lots of interesting information about effectively greasing and preventing chainfires.
Hope it helps.

http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/RevolverMobile.html

Welcome, enjoy

 

[tac]

Owning a replica 51 Navy myself I can tell you it is time consuming to reload and not the thing you want to do in the heat of battle. I believe that someone wanting to improve their chances of surviving battle, would carry more than one fully loaded pistol. You can be shot a whole lot of times while pouring powder down the barrel, pushing a wad and ball down to seat on the powder, placing a cap on the nipple, cocking, aiming, and finally firing.

Even I make up my own revolver cartridges, purely for the convenience.

 

[Rhea Cole]

The mounted members Signal Corps was issued with sabers & pistols. Except for garrison duty, nobody seems to have bothered with the sabers for very long. Their poor horses ears suffered too much. Stuck in the ground, a saber makes an excellent rest for a telescope & was retained for that purpose.

As we know, on a battlefield a pistol is a decorator item for officers. I have a very amusing account of a signal unit assigned to guard a wagon train. Apparently, somebody thought they looked like cavalry. The signalists were alarmed, to say the least. Had they pulled the trigger of their disused pistols, there was no telling which way they would fire... toward or away from the shooter.

A police fire arms instructor had us run laps & then immediately come to the range. Panting & winded, we scattered rounds every which a way. it was a powerful demonstration. All too often, in a real combat situation, pistols are just noisemakers.

I have an 1851 model Colt that I still bring out for Signal Corps living history events. I never could hit anything I aimed at with the thing. Haven't fired it in decades.

 

[Rhea Cole]

This has been interesting. I have a folder on my iMac for weapons. In it there are I don't know how many references from caltrops to coastal artillery. My point is that I have been collecting these things for twenty some odd years.

In my pistol file there isn't a single spare cylinder reference. There are a lot of calamities & a man who survived over thirty pistol wounds. It may just be a sampling error on my part, but like others in this thread I love to be educated, I am always open to a reference.

As a purely personal observation, I agree that a capped & loaded spare cylinder would have been extremely dangerous to carry & handle. Heck, it is hard enough to keep caps in place with the cylinder on the pistol.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Some Historic Perspective

Pistols are very clumsy to load, especially matchlocks.
So, put a knob on the end so you can use it as a mace.

While you are at it, you could also make it really cool looking.

Let's face it, nobody can hit a garage door with a pistol...

How about we go for some serious firepower?

Of course, nothing says that a pistol can't look ferocious.

Images by the author, French national military museum, Hotel des Invalides, Paris, France.​

 

[Rhea Cole]

How to Load an 1851 Model Colt

In answer to a P.M., here is a quick demo using my Signal Corps prop pistol that has the appropriate patina.

Step 1 is to go to 1/2 cock, which frees up the cylinder.
On the left is the cartridge box with powder & ball. On the right the furry one is the cap box.

Step 2 is to pour powder into a cylinder & pushing a ball in on top of it.
(Yes, it has been a while & a thorough cleaning is my next project.)

This shows how the lever seats the round in the cylinder.

Step 3 is to seat caps onto the nipples.
This has to be done carefully or loose caps will jam the cylinder.

After pulling the wedge, the barrel assembly is pulled forward releasing the cylinder.

Once disassembled a preloaded cylinder could be substituted... I wouldn't want to do this on a moving horse.

Photos by the author who regularly has a house full of grand & great daughters, so there is no powder or shot on the premises.​

 

[CowCavalry]

I know this is powerful necroposting, but I believe it may be of some interest to someone.
PAPER CARTRIDGES.
Preloaded paper cartridges were very common in civil war era, but revolver cartridges were very different in composition and use from musket cartridges. While the latter were made with heavy, stout, long fiber paper and meant to be opened, powder poured in the barrel and paper used as wad, revolver paper cartridges were made out of nitrated paper. They were thicker and far more robust than revolver paper cartridges made with cigarette-like paper today. They were meant to be loaded as they were, and they burned completely in the chamber.

RELOADING
Reloading a cap-and-ball with paper cartridges wasn't much slower than reloading a SAA: you just pressed the paper cartridges in the chamber and capped the nipples with a capper. Compared with ejecting spent cases and reloading, it's a slower process, but not that much. The custom of carrying two revolvers came from the times of cap and ball: far much faster to draw a second, loaded gun than reloading the first one (what today is called a "New York reload").

GREASE, BULLETS AND CHAINFIRES.
Vintage bullets were all lubricated. They had deeper grease grooves than modern bullets.
There's no evidence of grease being added in front of the bullet itself. Field tests also proved that most of the soft grease smeared in front of the bullet in chambers gets sprayed away at the first firing of the gun, due to recoil and gas escaping from the cylinder gap.
Chain fires are caused either by loose primers or by "dirty" loading practices that leave the face of the cylinder dirty with powder, which can get trapped between ball and cylinder wall, and transmit the fire from the firing of one chamber to the adjacent one.
Wiping the cylinder face of any grease residue and "clean" reloading techniques avoiding to pepper the cylinder face with powder do marvels to prevent chain firing.

Bullets had deep, wide grease grooves that were greased with tallow and beeswax that helped keep powder residue soft.

With spherical bullets it's better to put a disc of hard BP grease between powder and bullet, than greasing the face of the cylinder.
It's FAR less messy, and keeps the powder residues far softer and the barrel cleaner.
Grease in front of the bullet gets sprayed away as said, and gets anyway pushed out of the barrel by the bullet, leaving hard caked carbon residue behind.
What (solid) grease between powder and ball does is different: upon firing, it gets vaporized by heat and pressure, mixed with the burning gases, and leaves behind the bullet a layer of carbon residues mixed with grease.
This is very soft, so soft that you can actually mop it out of the bore, leaving a clean barrel.
Military loads didn't need it as they used conical bullets with deep grease grooves, using the same grease.

Do not use "creamy" greases! Grease must be hard enough to be solid at room temperature, so as not to contaminate powder. I tried 50% beeswax, 50% vegetable margarine (originally tallow was used) with excellent results it was smelted in a shallow tray, then I used a section of 45 case as cookie cutter to cut grease "pills" for use in my Uberti Walker.
I shot dozens of 44 grains FFFg + round ball shots with the barrel still comparatively clean afterwards.

CLEANING (after proper greasing)
I cleaned up the gun just by mopping out the residues, without using ANY water or solvent, and lubed it with jojoba oil (which is almost equivalent to the sperm whale oil used back then). No traces of rust after repeated firing and a couple years sitting in my safe.


This page has lots of interesting information about effectively greasing and preventing chainfires.
Hope it helps.

http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/RevolverMobile.html

Very nice post, good info, but I will share my admittedly purely anecdotal experience. When I was a teenager, I bought a repro 1851 Navy Colt, in the incorrect .44 caliber of course. I shot hundreds if not thousands of rounds through it. Found it to be one of the most accurate revolvers I have ever owned, to this day. The Navy Colt has IMHO, the best grip ever designed. The gun feels like an extension of your hand, they point so well. Anyhow, I always dutifully coated the tops of the cylinder with grease but I always felt like this was not done back in the day so one day, in a desire to be more historically accurate, I skipped the grease. By the way, I had long since quit "coating" the tops of the cylinder, instead, I placed a small dab of grease on the ball and used the rammer to squish it, worked quite well. I used a tight fitting ball, .454 iirc, it never failed to shave a nice ring of lead when I loaded. This time however, when I pulled the trigger, the gun recoiled heavily and made an unusual report. I Immediately knew what had happened; a chain fire. Three chambers had gone off at once. The very first time I failed to grease the cylinders. It was not due to "dirty" loading or loose caps or trust me, I would have had many chainfires over the years, as I was not a "clean" loader by any means. I have the powder burns to prove it. I have also had the Remington caps fall off under recoil, and never had a chainfire as I continued to fire, not noticing the cap fell off until the "snap". I preferred the CCI as they fit tighter.

Anyways, loved the post and learned something from it regarding using these guns in the day. And I agree, I could load mine fairly quick, not much slower than I can my SAA. People think that you are at a huge disadvantage with a cap n ball revolver, not realizing the average shoot out is only like 3 rounds. I would guess that a cavalry man with two Colts found that once they were empty, the action was over.

 

[CowCavalry]

As we know, on a battlefield a pistol is a decorator item for officers. I

My understanding is that a sidearm on a officer, was to keep their own men from moving to the rear. That and things like killing the wounded horses and cutting them out of the traces of an artillery team, as EP Alexander mentions often had to be done after action.