John Burns honorable?

What describes John Burns best?

  • Honorable old man

    Votes: 16 45.7%
  • Un-uniformed bushwacker and terrorist

    Votes: 2 5.7%
  • Crazy Old Coot you'd love to have as grandpa

    Votes: 17 48.6%

  • Total voters
    35
However in most any war what one side does or decides for policy will be reciprocated, as it should be, if its good enough for the goose, no reason it shouldn't be good enough for the gander. We certainly wouldn't want to be hypocritical in our world view. As I'm sure your aware any "standard" isn't a standard until its applied equally

No reasonable reason if as you say it would apply to Burns if he was a Confederate, to not expect the Confederates to treat him the same...…..And as I pointed out, here they would have treated him the same....well theres chance he might have been hung instead of shot, but end result is bout same, dead and left along the road somewhere......
By definition war is not about granting equal and reciprocal rights to the enemy.
The Confederacy is not even under U.S. law a recognized nation. The Union has the right to enforce the Leiber Code. An insurgent entity such has the Confederacy dies not have the legal right to enforce the Leiber Code or some similar against U.S. citizens.
Leftyhunter
 
By definition war is not about granting equal and reciprocal rights to the enemy.
The Confederacy is not even under U.S. law a recognized nation. The Union has the right to enforce the Leiber Code. An insurgent entity such has the Confederacy dies not have the legal right to enforce the Leiber Code or some similar against U.S. citizens.
Leftyhunter
They did though, as every nation or combatant will enforce the prevailing codes or views of their day.....Don't think you'll find many examples through history were policies weren't reciprocated, which really just makes sense for everyone to least be on same page, so to speak

Kinda goes back to the Golden Rule, do unto others as you would have them do to you, an amazingly common sense proverb IMO
 
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They did though, as every nation or combatant will enforce the prevailing codes or views of their day.....Don't think you'll find many examples through history were policies weren't reciprocated, which really just makes sense for everyone to least be on same page, so to speak

Kinda goes back to the Golden Rule, do unto others as you would have them do to you, an amazingly common sense proverb IMO
Not exactly true. Do you recall the dispute that led to the break down of cartel if prisoner exchange? The dispute was due to President Davis issuing a proclamation that black soldiers of the USCT were not to be treated as equals with white Union Pows but instead sold into slavery or returned to their masters? Also the proclamation did state that the white officers of the USCT could be executed.
So no the Confederacy did not play by the Golden Rule.
Leftyhunter
 
Not exactly true. Do you recall the dispute that led to the break down of cartel if prisoner exchange? The dispute was due to President Davis issuing a proclamation that black soldiers of the USCT were not to be treated as equals with white Union Pows but instead sold into slavery or returned to their masters? Also the proclamation did state that the white officers of the USCT could be executed.
So no the Confederacy did not play by the Golden Rule.
Leftyhunter
as I said "I don't think you'll find many examples" never said there weren't any....But generally throughout history most policies are reciprocated including during the CW,

Here both sides generally released prisoners on parole, the Union issues general order 2 to kill them, the guerrillas start to too, When Kansas troops scalped guerrillas, the guerrillas adopted the same practice, one side burns other sides supporters house, then the other does the same.....the golden rule was very popular here, and endlessly practiced by both sides returning what one did to the other
 
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as I said "I don't think you'll find many examples" never said there weren't any....But generally throughout history most policies are reciprocated including during the CW,

Here both sides generally released prisoners on parole, the Union issues general order 2 to kill them, the guerrillas start to too, When Kansas troops scalped guerrillas, the guerrillas adopted the same practice, one side burns other sides supporters house, then the other does the same.....the golden rule was very popular here, and endlessly practiced by both sides returning what one did to the other
It is true that insurgency wars do not lead to mutual feelings of warmth and fuzziness. In the case of Missouri which can be the subject if another thread ir added to one of the existing Missouri threads it is rather debatable that the poor little Confederate guerrillas in Missouri were fair and just and were forced by the big bad Yankees to react to them.
Leftyhunter
 
However the fact is then or even today, most nations would view a civilian killing it troops in civilian garb, who returns to his house to hide among the civilian population as outside the rules of war...…….and not deserving of protection

Which is what the thread about, a man who did exactly that......
 
It is true that insurgency wars do not lead to mutual feelings of warmth and fuzziness. In the case of Missouri which can be the subject if another thread ir added to one of the existing Missouri threads it is rather debatable that the poor little Confederate guerrillas in Missouri were fair and just and were forced by the big bad Yankees to react to them.
Leftyhunter
if your going to just be disingenuous, there's no point in discussion.
 
The Leiber Code does not apply to those who fight for the Union. If Burns had picked up a musket and fought for the Confederate Army then it would apply.
Leftyhunter
Was the Liber Code used to prosecute John Basil Turchin?
 
Ivan Vasyliovych Turchyn; December 24, 1822 – June 18, 1901) better known by his Anglicised name of John Basil Turchin, was aUnion army brigadier general in the American Civil War. He led two critical charges that saved the day at Chickamauga and was among the first to lead soldiers up Missionary Ridge.

Turchin joined the Union army at the outbreak of the war in 1861 and became the colonel of the 19th Illinois Volunteer Infantry Regiment. Having led his regiment in Missouri and Kentucky, he soon found his unit under command of the newly organized Army of the Ohio under major general Don Carlos Buell. General Buell was impressed by Turchin and promoted him to command a brigade in the Army of the Ohio's Third Division, commanded by Brigadier General Ormsby M. Mitchel. Buell advanced southward into Kentucky and Tennessee in early 1862.

When Buell headed west to support Grant at Shiloh, he left Mitchel to hold Nashville. Turchin urged Mitchel to move southward. Mitchel did so, but not because of Turchin. He took Huntsville, Alabama as part of a plan with the spy James Andrews to capture Chattanooga by cutting it off from Confederate reinforcements. Mitchel blocked them from the west by capturing Huntsville. Andrews was to block them from the south by burning bridges on the Western and Atlantic line. Unfortunately, Andrews failed as his raid evolved into an episode that became known as the Great Locomotive Chase. Nonetheless, Mitchell continued to occupy the line westward from Chattanooga throughout much of northern Alabama.

The occupation of northern Alabama by this division of the Union Army led to attack by combined partisan and Confederatecavalry units. One such attack overran one of Turchin's regiments at Athens, Alabama. Frustration had been building among these Union soldiers for weeks over repeated attacks and Buell's clearly stated conciliatory policy of protecting the rights and property of Southerners. The reported involvement of local citizens in the rout at Athens and the humiliation suffered by the Union soldiers led to the sacking of the town when Turchin brought up reinforcements.

After reoccupying the town on May 2, 1862 Turchin assembled his men and reportedly told them: "I shut my eyes for two hours. I see nothing." He did in fact leave the town to reconnoiter defensive positions, during which time his men ransacked the business district. The incident was controversial, and Lost Cause supporters vilified Turchin.

When word reached General Buell, a man much detested by the soldiers, he insisted on court-martialing Turchin. Turchin's court proceedings received national attention and became a focal point for the debate on the conduct of the war, related to the conciliatory policy as Union casualties in the war mounted. However, President Abraham Lincoln promoted Turchin tobrigadier general before the court-martial was finished.

Turchin received a hero's welcome upon his return to Chicago. Prominent figures called for the removal of Buell and a more aggressive conduct of the war such that it be brought to a swift end. Turchin was given command of a new brigade. He distinguished himself during the battles of Chickamauga and Chattanooga, and in the Atlanta Campaign.

Turchin's wife, known in the army as Madame Turchin, always stood by him and followed her husband on the field during his campaigns, witnessing the battles (as at Chickamauga and at the battle of Missionary Ridge), and writing the only woman's war diary of the military campaigns.[13]

The song "Turchin's got your mule" (stemming from the catchphrase "Here's your mule") was popular during the war, and its chorus is said to have been used by disheartened troopers as a derisive answer to General Braxton Bragg's endearments at Missionary Ridge.[14]

Turchin resigned from service in October 1864 after suffering heatstroke on the campaign.

Court Martial
There were three charges against Turchin. He was first accused of "neglect of duty."[15] According to the recitations, there were over twenty or so instances where Turchin supposedly ordered his soldiers to pillage and plunder Athens, AL, without any proper restraints to them.[16] Such instances included the sexual abuse of a servant [meaning slave] girl and the utter decimation of Bibles and testaments, ruthlessly destroyed and burned to pieces in a shop. Many of the other allegations against him included the plundering of ten stores and nine homes. "The rape served as the ultimate example of Turchin's failure" to control his own troops.[17] Under the second charge, Turchin failed to perform proper behavior expected out of an officer and a gentleman. This mattered to General Buell because under "Article 83 conviction meant automatic dismissal from the service and the end of Turchin's military career." A specification added to this charge included a failure to pay the bill at a hotel where he defrauded the innkeeper. The third charge was a failure to obey orders. It was believed that if Turchin was convicted on this charge it would send a clear message to the officers in the Army of the Ohio. It was a means of instilling discipline and order within the ranks of the army [18] When the court-martial began, Garfield had been under the impression that Turchin allowed the things that took place at Athens in accordance with the Muscovite custom
 
Was the Liber Code used to prosecute John Basil Turchin?
I just read the Wiki article on Turchin. The answer is yes. A court martial was begun after Major General Buell preferred charges on Turchin. Turchin's ace in the hole was the commander and chief of the U.S. armed forces who promoted Turchin to Brig General and Turchin fought with distinction before resigning due to heat stroke.
In 1900 Congress approved a special private pension for Turchin who was suffering from severe dementia and penniless.
So did Turchin commit any wrongs. Not per Lincoln and the Congress of the United States.
Leftyhunter
 
You would have to fill me in on the details.
Leftyhunter
Buell had him brought up on charges that his men ransacked the business district of Athens Alabama and that he had willingly encouraged it. Does this Liber Code cover all Union military action? I am not really familiar with it.
TnFed.
 
Ivan Vasyliovych Turchyn; December 24, 1822 – June 18, 1901) better known by his Anglicised name of John Basil Turchin, was aUnion army brigadier general in the American Civil War. He led two critical charges that saved the day at Chickamauga and was among the first to lead soldiers up Missionary Ridge.

Turchin joined the Union army at the outbreak of the war in 1861 and became the colonel of the 19th Illinois Volunteer Infantry Regiment. Having led his regiment in Missouri and Kentucky, he soon found his unit under command of the newly organized Army of the Ohio under major general Don Carlos Buell. General Buell was impressed by Turchin and promoted him to command a brigade in the Army of the Ohio's Third Division, commanded by Brigadier General Ormsby M. Mitchel. Buell advanced southward into Kentucky and Tennessee in early 1862.

When Buell headed west to support Grant at Shiloh, he left Mitchel to hold Nashville. Turchin urged Mitchel to move southward. Mitchel did so, but not because of Turchin. He took Huntsville, Alabama as part of a plan with the spy James Andrews to capture Chattanooga by cutting it off from Confederate reinforcements. Mitchel blocked them from the west by capturing Huntsville. Andrews was to block them from the south by burning bridges on the Western and Atlantic line. Unfortunately, Andrews failed as his raid evolved into an episode that became known as the Great Locomotive Chase. Nonetheless, Mitchell continued to occupy the line westward from Chattanooga throughout much of northern Alabama.

The occupation of northern Alabama by this division of the Union Army led to attack by combined partisan and Confederatecavalry units. One such attack overran one of Turchin's regiments at Athens, Alabama. Frustration had been building among these Union soldiers for weeks over repeated attacks and Buell's clearly stated conciliatory policy of protecting the rights and property of Southerners. The reported involvement of local citizens in the rout at Athens and the humiliation suffered by the Union soldiers led to the sacking of the town when Turchin brought up reinforcements.

After reoccupying the town on May 2, 1862 Turchin assembled his men and reportedly told them: "I shut my eyes for two hours. I see nothing." He did in fact leave the town to reconnoiter defensive positions, during which time his men ransacked the business district. The incident was controversial, and Lost Cause supporters vilified Turchin.

When word reached General Buell, a man much detested by the soldiers, he insisted on court-martialing Turchin. Turchin's court proceedings received national attention and became a focal point for the debate on the conduct of the war, related to the conciliatory policy as Union casualties in the war mounted. However, President Abraham Lincoln promoted Turchin tobrigadier general before the court-martial was finished.

Turchin received a hero's welcome upon his return to Chicago. Prominent figures called for the removal of Buell and a more aggressive conduct of the war such that it be brought to a swift end. Turchin was given command of a new brigade. He distinguished himself during the battles of Chickamauga and Chattanooga, and in the Atlanta Campaign.

Turchin's wife, known in the army as Madame Turchin, always stood by him and followed her husband on the field during his campaigns, witnessing the battles (as at Chickamauga and at the battle of Missionary Ridge), and writing the only woman's war diary of the military campaigns.[13]

The song "Turchin's got your mule" (stemming from the catchphrase "Here's your mule") was popular during the war, and its chorus is said to have been used by disheartened troopers as a derisive answer to General Braxton Bragg's endearments at Missionary Ridge.[14]

Turchin resigned from service in October 1864 after suffering heatstroke on the campaign.

Court Martial
There were three charges against Turchin. He was first accused of "neglect of duty."[15] According to the recitations, there were over twenty or so instances where Turchin supposedly ordered his soldiers to pillage and plunder Athens, AL, without any proper restraints to them.[16] Such instances included the sexual abuse of a servant [meaning slave] girl and the utter decimation of Bibles and testaments, ruthlessly destroyed and burned to pieces in a shop. Many of the other allegations against him included the plundering of ten stores and nine homes. "The rape served as the ultimate example of Turchin's failure" to control his own troops.[17] Under the second charge, Turchin failed to perform proper behavior expected out of an officer and a gentleman. This mattered to General Buell because under "Article 83 conviction meant automatic dismissal from the service and the end of Turchin's military career." A specification added to this charge included a failure to pay the bill at a hotel where he defrauded the innkeeper. The third charge was a failure to obey orders. It was believed that if Turchin was convicted on this charge it would send a clear message to the officers in the Army of the Ohio. It was a means of instilling discipline and order within the ranks of the army [18] When the court-martial began, Garfield had been under the impression that Turchin allowed the things that took place at Athens in accordance with the Muscovite custom
I just read the Wiki article.
Leftyhunter
 
However the fact is then or even today, most nations would view a civilian killing it troops in civilian garb, who returns to his house to hide among the civilian population as outside the rules of war...…….and not deserving of protection

Which is what the thread about, a man who did exactly that......
Yet Americans have long viewed people like Burns as heroes, people who set aside a safe, easy life to defend their homes.
 
Buell had him brought up on charges that his men ransacked the business district of Athens Alabama and that he had willingly encouraged it. Does this Liber Code cover all Union military action? I am not really familiar with it.
TnFed.
Yes and Buell has noted did have Turchin court martialed . As noted President Lincoln had no issue with Turchin's actions. who promoted Turchin to Brig General and neither did the U.S. Congress which in 1900 voted for Turchin to have a special private pension beyond his normal pension.
Not bad for a Russian officer who quickly rose up the ranks of the Union Army.
Leftyhunter
 
Turchin had extensive military experience in his native Russia. I once read that during the civil war he took sick and his WIFE commanded his troop..lol...don't know how true that is, she did stay with him though.
 
I am undecided about Burns' motive...was he a patriot wanting to help out? Or, did he become involved just to tick off Mrs. Burns and show her he was not all washed up. Whatever the motive, John Burns certainly is of interesting character and IMHO would make a good neighbor.
 

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