John Brown (poll)

[gem]

What role did John Brown play in sparking the civil war?

 

[Elennsar]

I'm not sure what to vote.

I don't think John Brown directly bears any responsibility, I think the people who used him and made claims that others were supporting him whether they were or not as a way to treat all forms of antislavery behavior as apocalyptic are more relevant than the actual consequences of his actions in either Kansas (part of a generally violent issue) or Virginia (which was a fizzle, to say the least).

 

[brass napoleon]

I agree with Elennsar. John Brown's attempted slave rebellion was a "fizzle" compared to the scores of rebellions and attempted rebellions that had occurred in the South over the prior two centuries. What was significant was the propaganda value to the secessionists in pursuing an agenda they were going to pursue anyway. I do believe that in that regard it was very effective propaganda and probably helped convert many moderate Southerners into secessionists, or at least diminish their sense of Unionism.

There still would have been a Civil War without John Brown, but Brown and the propagandists who exploited him probably convinced more Southerners to fight longer and harder.

 

[CSA Today]

John Brown did make Southerners more distrustful of the North so I voted small role, though I would emphasize the very minor role that it may have caused in leading to secession which in turn led to war.

 

[7thWisconsin]

I think it's a large role, and partly about timing. In John Brown, southerners saw the perfect storm of all their worst fears. 1) that the slaves would rise up ( but they knew that already) 2) that white men would help them, which doubles the fear and, 3) that the abolitionists would fund them. By 1859, southerners were able to say "see, they really are out to get us." At the same time, he gave the abolitionists a martyr, an appallingly bad and bloodthirsty one, but a symbol nevertheless. Brown was like the point of the sharp end where culture, politics, theology and personal history all converge. He was a footsoldier, but he was the footsoldier who lit the short fuse on the powder keg. I don't think there was any going back after Harper's Ferry.

 

[CWguy]

Agreed with 7thWisconsin. I have always admired John Brown's courage. Many Americans believed in freeing the slaves but would not participate. John Brown underestimated the blacks at Harpers Ferry and the people that he thought would help in his cause. He spent many years to promote his mission and couldn't go back. He was being hunted down and was suffering from Bells Palsy indicated by the contortion of his face. The beard was a disguise in 1859. Brown's travels to campaign for freeing the slaves could not be matched by any. He was an inspiration for the folk that didn't agree with slavery. So I rate him high for the Civil War cause. Visit Allies For Freedom by Jean Libby. She studied Brown for decades and has written books about John Brown.

 

[7thWisconsin]

He had the kind of tragic life that makes people long for the apocalypse; in his case he wanted to help make it happen! I'm conflicted about Brown. He certainly had the courage of his convictions, but he did go down the path of murder and conspiracy. If I were in my current profession (clergy), in my current home (the northeast), in 1859, with the strong views on race, he would have been a hero to me. This is chilling to me since I know how the story plays out. I find him an interesting study in radicalization.

 

[Nathanb1]

Agreed with 7thWisconsin. I have always admired John Brown's courage. Many Americans believed in freeing the slaves but would not participate. John Brown underestimated the blacks at Harpers Ferry and the people that he thought would help in his cause. He spent many years to promote his mission and couldn't go back. He was being hunted down and was suffering from Bells Palsy indicated by the contortion of his face. The beard was a disguise in 1859. Brown's travels to campaign for freeing the slaves could not be matched by any. He was an inspiration for the folk that didn't agree with slavery. So I rate him high for the Civil War cause. Visit Allies For Freedom by Jean Libby. She studied Brown for decades and has written books about John Brown.

Overestimated?

 

[CWguy]

The winner writes the history books. In Brown's case he lost.

 

[kevikens]

I think it was Brown's raid, and the Northern response to it, that, more than any other incident of that time period, got the average Southerner thinking that separation from the North was the only way to avoid the destruction of their way of life. If polls were taken before and after Harper's Ferry you would have seen that.

 

[W. Richardson]

I voted a small role, Brown was more a murderer then anything and many in the North looked at him as a hero. His slave rebellion was a failure.



In its broad historical effects, John Brow's death was significant primarily because it aroused emotional sympathy for him in the North, and this sympathy, in turn, caused a deep sense of alienation on the part of the South, which felt that the North was canonizing a fiend who sought to plunge the South into a blood bath.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter


When John Brown was hanged at Charlestown, Virginia, on December 2, 1859, the organized expressions of sympathy in the North reached startling proportions. Church bells tolled, black bunting was hung out, minute guns were fired, prayer meetings assembled, and memorial resolutions were adopted. In the weeks following, the emotional outpouring continued; lithographs of Brown circulated in vast numbers, subscriptions were organized for the support of his family, immense memorial meetings took place in New York, Boston, and Philadelphia, a memorial volume was rushed through the press, and a stream of pilgrims began to visit his grave at North Elba, New York. The death of a national hero could not have called forth a greater outpouring of grief.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter


Respectfully,

William

 

[Elennsar]

http://www.vahistorical.org/collect...er/portent-john-browns-raid-american-memory-0

The Northern reaction was not exactly uniform, but its much easier to present things as if it was.

 

[brass napoleon]

I voted a small role, Brown was more a murderer then anything and many in the North looked at him as a hero. His slave rebellion was a failure.



In its broad historical effects, John Brow's death was significant primarily because it aroused emotional sympathy for him in the North, and this sympathy, in turn, caused a deep sense of alienation on the part of the South, which felt that the North was canonizing a fiend who sought to plunge the South into a blood bath.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter


When John Brown was hanged at Charlestown, Virginia, on December 2, 1859, the organized expressions of sympathy in the North reached startling proportions. Church bells tolled, black bunting was hung out, minute guns were fired, prayer meetings assembled, and memorial resolutions were adopted. In the weeks following, the emotional outpouring continued; lithographs of Brown circulated in vast numbers, subscriptions were organized for the support of his family, immense memorial meetings took place in New York, Boston, and Philadelphia, a memorial volume was rushed through the press, and a stream of pilgrims began to visit his grave at North Elba, New York. The death of a national hero could not have called forth a greater outpouring of grief.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter


Respectfully,

William

Aren't you forgetting something, William? Here's the two pages IMMEDIATELY before the two paragraphs you quoted:

Description can hardly do justice to his conduct. He was arraigned with excessive promptness, while still suffering from the wounds, and was indicted and brought to trial on the day of the arraignment, one week after his capture. The trial lasted one week, after which he was sentenced to be hanged one month from the date of sentence. This haste was shocking by any standards and appalling by modern standards of infinite prolongation, but it was generally agreed by Brown and others that the trial was conducted fairly and with a rough justice. during the trial, where Brown lay wounded on a pallet, and later, while awaiting execution, he handled himself with an unfailing dignity and composure. Apparently he never flinched from the hour of his capture until the moment of his death. His conduct deeply affected his jailer, won the hearts of his guards, and made a profound impression on millions of people who stood the death watch vicariously with him as his execution approached. On the occasion of his sentence, he responded with one of the classic statements in American prose:

"... it is unjust that I should suffer such a penalty... <snipped for brevity>... I never had any design against the liberty of any person, nor any disposition to commit treason or incite slaves to rebel or make any general insurrection. I never encouraged any man to do so, but always discouraged any idea of that kind."

- David M. Potter, The Impending Crisis: 1848-1861, pp. 376-378
​

Northern sympathy for Brown was for his death, and the way he handled it, in light of the "shocking" haste with which Virginia tried and executed him. Haste that convinced Northerners that Brown was telling the truth when he claimed that he had no intention to "incite slaves to rebel or make any general insurrection."

It was Virginia's actions that made a martyr out of Brown in the North. And that's just what many Virginia leaders wanted, like Edmund Ruffin, who delivered John Brown's pikes to each Southern statehouse for the pure propaganda effect.

 

[Elennsar]

Although if we're going to quote stuff for emphasis, "fairly and with a rough justice' is not quite a lynch mob.

Still. Observers seeing that haste are bound to see that as more rough than fair, and they should.

 

[Stony]

How many times are we gonna be subjected to this john brown poll? This is like the 3rd one since I've joined.

 

[Elennsar]

Search me. People seem to want to make him more (or less) than he was whenever he's talked about.

 

[brass napoleon]

Although if we're going to quote stuff for emphasis, "fairly and with a rough justice' is not quite a lynch mob.

Still. Observers seeing that haste are bound to see that as more rough than fair, and they should.

That was Brown's opinion - a man who wanted to die a martyr. There was nothing the least bit fair about it, and the Northern people knew it.

 

[brass napoleon]

How many times are we gonna be subjected to this john brown poll? This is like the 3rd one since I've joined.

Only 3? You must not come around often.

 

[Elennsar]

That was Brown's opinion - a man who wanted to die a martyr. There was nothing the least bit fair about it, and the Northern people knew it.

Well, the language of what you quoted says "Brown and others', so I assumed it wasn't just the old fanatic himself.

Still. If he wanted to die a martyr, Virginia's handling was well suited to granting that wish whether it was strictly unfair or not. Treating him as "a common murderer" would actually be a step up from this indecent haste, and I say this trying to be optimistic.

I don't think I'd be very inclined to be optimistic when the Ruffins are doing what they did, though. That just is . . . not sure what to call it, but trolling might work.

 

[brass napoleon]

Well, the language of what you wrote says "Brown and others', so I assumed it wasn't just the old fanatic himself.

I assume the Virginia leaders felt they were handling him fairly, but I don't know of any objective bystanders who believed he was being treated fairly, do you? Certainly the source you posted didn't see it as fair:

The opinion of the towering French poet, novelist, and dramatist Victor Hugo was judged by many to be the verdict of the civilized world. He strongly opposed the punishment. Many in Europe followed Hugo's lead in their disappointment that America chose to execute a man for only trying to free slaves.​