John Brown (poll)

[W. Richardson]

Aren't you forgetting something, William? Here's the two pages IMMEDIATELY before the two paragraphs you quoted:

Description can hardly do justice to his conduct. He was arraigned with excessive promptness, while still suffering from the wounds, and was indicted and brought to trial on the day of the arraignment, one week after his capture. The trial lasted one week, after which he was sentenced to be hanged one month from the date of sentence. This haste was shocking by any standards and appalling by modern standards of infinite prolongation, but it was generally agreed by Brown and others that the trial was conducted fairly and with a rough justice. during the trial, where Brown lay wounded on a pallet, and later, while awaiting execution, he handled himself with an unfailing dignity and composure. Apparently he never flinched from the hour of his capture until the moment of his death. His conduct deeply affected his jailer, won the hearts of his guards, and made a profound impression on millions of people who stood the death watch vicariously with him as his execution approached. On the occasion of his sentence, he responded with one of the classic statements in American prose:

"... it is unjust that I should suffer such a penalty... <snipped for brevity>... I never had any design against the liberty of any person, nor any disposition to commit treason or incite slaves to rebel or make any general insurrection. I never encouraged any man to do so, but always discouraged any idea of that kind."

- David M. Potter, The Impending Crisis: 1848-1861, pp. 376-378
​

Northern sympathy for Brown was for his death, and the way he handled it, in light of the "shocking" haste with which Virginia tried and executed him. Haste that convinced Northerners that Brown was telling the truth when he claimed that he had no intention to "incite slaves to rebel or make any general insurrection."

It was Virginia's actions that made a martyr out of Brown in the North. And that's just what many Virginia leaders wanted, like Edmund Ruffin, who delivered John Brown's pikes to each Southern statehouse for the pure propaganda effect.

Didn't forget a thing................Point was many in the North worshiped Brown.............
The North made Brown a martyr, Virginia hung a murderer............

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The death of a national hero could not have called forth a greater outpouring of grief.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter

Respectfully,

William

 

[Georgia Sixth]

IBrown was like the point of the sharp end where culture, politics, theology and personal history all converge.

Very well said!

Brown's cause was a good one, but when a person or movement goes bad in extreme pursuit of a virtue, it becomes capable of the worst of evils. The people involved cannot see the evil in their actions because of the good of their cause.

In my estimation, Brown was very significant because his plot -- with all his northern supporters -- gave credence to the "fire eater" propaganda; most especially, it made non slaveholding whites think they had "skin" in this game, as a slave rebellion *** race war would place them at existential risk.

 

[W. Richardson]

http://www.vahistorical.org/collect...er/portent-john-browns-raid-american-memory-0

The Northern reaction was not exactly uniform, but its much easier to present things as if it was.

When John Brown was hanged at Charlestown, Virginia, on December 2, 1859, the organized expressions of sympathy in the North reached startling proportions.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter


Not my words, but the words of a accepted and credited author and book.

Respectfully,

William

 

[brass napoleon]

Didn't forget a thing................Point was many in the North worshiped Brown.............
The North made Brown a martyr, Virginia hung a murderer............

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The death of a national hero could not have called forth a greater outpouring of grief.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter

Respectfully,

William

Sorry, William, but Dr. Potter's words are right there for all to see. The North's initial reaction to Brown was practically universal condemnation, like the Radical Republican Horace Greeley in the New York Tribune:

The Insurrection, so called, at Harper's Ferry, proves a verity. Old Brown of Osawatamie, who was last heard of on his way from Missouri to Canada with a band of runaway slaves, now turns up in Virginia, where he seems to have been for some months plotting and preparing for a general stampede of slaves. How he came to be in Harper's Ferry, and in possession of the U. S. Armory, is not yet clear; but he was probably betrayed or exposed, and seized the Armory as a place of security until he could safely get away. The whole affair seems the work of a madman; but John Brown has so often looked death serenely in the face that what seems madness to others doubtless wore a different aspect to him. He had twenty-one men with him, mostly white, who appear to have held the Armory from 9 P. M. of Sunday till 7 of Tuesday (yesterday) morning, when it was stormed by Col. Lee and a party of U. S. Marines, and its defenders nearly all killed or mortally wounded. Old Brown was severely wounded and his son -- (we believe his last surviving son) -- killed. Of the original twenty-two, fifteen were killed, two mortally wounded, and two unhurt. The other three had pushed northward on Monday morning guiding a number of fugitive slaves through Maryland. These were of course sharply pursued and fired on, but had not been taken at our last advices.

Harper's Ferry was full of soldiers and militia men yesterday, and more are constantly pouring in. never before was such an uproar raised by twenty men as by Old Brown and his confederates in this deplorable affair.

-- There will be enough to heap execration on the memory of these mistaken men. we leave this work to the fit hands and tongues of those who regard the fundamental axioms of the Declaration of Independence as "glittering generalities." Believing that the way to Universal Emancipation lies not through insurrection, civil war and bloodshed, but through , discussion, and the quick diffusion of sentiments of humanity and justice, we deeply regret this outbreak; but remembering that, if their fault was grievous, grievously have they answered it, we will not, by one reproachful word, disturb the bloody shrouds wherein John Brown and his compatriots are sleeping. They dared and died for what they felt to be the right, though in a manner which seems to us fatally wrong. Let their epitaphs remain unwritten until the not distant day when no slave shall clank his chains in the shades of Monticello or by the graves of Mount Vernon.

Source: http://history.furman.edu/editorials/see.py?sequence=jbmenu&location= John Brown's Raid on Harper's Ferry&ecode=nytrjb591019a
​

If Virginia had given him a fair trial, he would have been forever deemed a "madman". But Virginia made a hero out of him.

 

[brass napoleon]

When John Brown was hanged at Charlestown, Virginia, on December 2, 1859, the organized expressions of sympathy in the North reached startling proportions.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter


Not my words, but the words of a accepted and credited author and book.

Respectfully,

William

That's right, William. It was Virginia's hanging of Brown that made a martyr out of him. When the North first heard what Brown had done, they universally condemned him as a "madman".

 

[W. Richardson]

That's right, William. It was Virginia's hanging of Brown that made a martyr out of him. When the North first heard what Brown had done, they universally condemned him as a "madman".

They should have gave Brown a medal and set him free...........Right ? That is what the North would have done.....He was hung just as he should have and it is a total disgrace for anyone to honor him at all.

Respectfully,

William

 

[Elennsar]

Point.

Didn't forget a thing................Point was many in the North worshiped Brown.............
The North made Brown a martyr, Virginia hung a murderer............

"Some of" the North.

The idea that the North spoke with one voice here is simply not true, even looking at people who were avowedly antislavery.

 

[W. Richardson]

Sorry, William, but Dr. Potter's words are right there for all to see.

You are totally correct........................For all to see and not to ignore.............

In its broad historical effects, John Brow's death was significant primarily because it aroused emotional sympathy for him in the North, and this sympathy, in turn, caused a deep sense of alienation on the part of the South, which felt that the North was canonizing a fiend who sought to plunge the South into a blood bath.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter


When John Brown was hanged at Charlestown, Virginia, on December 2, 1859, the organized expressions of sympathy in the North reached startling proportions. Church bells tolled, black bunting was hung out, minute guns were fired, prayer meetings assembled, and memorial resolutions were adopted. In the weeks following, the emotional outpouring continued; lithographs of Brown circulated in vast numbers, subscriptions were organized for the support of his family, immense memorial meetings took place in New York, Boston, and Philadelphia, a memorial volume was rushed through the press, and a stream of pilgrims began to visit his grave at North Elba, New York. The death of a national hero could not have called forth a greater outpouring of grief.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter


Respectfully,

William

 

[brass napoleon]

They should have gave Brown a medal and set him free...........Right ? That is what the North would have done.....He was hung just as he should have and it is a total disgrace for anyone to honor him at all.

Respectfully,

William

They should have given him time to recuperate from his wounds, then given him a fair trial. If the trial proved that he had committed a capital crime, then they should have hanged him. But there was no fair trial, just an organized lynch mob that convinced Northerners that Brown was telling the truth when he said he had no intention of inciting a rebellion.

 

[W. Richardson]

Point.


"Some of" the North.

The idea that the North spoke with one voice here is simply not true, even looking at people who were avowedly antislavery.

Some is correct.............A great some............but not all..........

"the organized expressions of sympathy in the North reached startling proportions.."

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter


Respectfully,

William

 

[brass napoleon]

You are totally correct........................For all to see and not to ignore.............

In its broad historical effects, John Brow's death was significant primarily because it aroused emotional sympathy for him in the North, and this sympathy, in turn, caused a deep sense of alienation on the part of the South, which felt that the North was canonizing a fiend who sought to plunge the South into a blood bath.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter


When John Brown was hanged at Charlestown, Virginia, on December 2, 1859, the organized expressions of sympathy in the North reached startling proportions. Church bells tolled, black bunting was hung out, minute guns were fired, prayer meetings assembled, and memorial resolutions were adopted. In the weeks following, the emotional outpouring continued; lithographs of Brown circulated in vast numbers, subscriptions were organized for the support of his family, immense memorial meetings took place in New York, Boston, and Philadelphia, a memorial volume was rushed through the press, and a stream of pilgrims began to visit his grave at North Elba, New York. The death of a national hero could not have called forth a greater outpouring of grief.

The Impending Crisis 1848 - 1861 Page: 378 By David Porter


Respectfully,

William

Your continued posting of the same passages out of context does nothing for your case, William. I've already posted the context that you ignored and continue to ignore - context that shows that it was the "shocking haste" with which Virginia rushed Brown to the gallows, and his response to it, that evoked the sympathy of the North and "made a profound impression on millions."

 

[W. Richardson]

They should have given him time to recuperate from his wounds, then given him a fair trial. If the trial proved that he had committed a capital crime, then they should have hanged him. But there was no fair trial, just an organized lynch mob that convinced Northerners that Brown was telling the truth when he said he had no intention of inciting a rebellion.

He didn't cause the death of innocent people ? He didn't attack a Federal facility ? He received his wounds while committing a crime. Brown hung and rightfully so.................

Respectfully,

William

 

[W. Richardson]

Your continued posting of the same passages out of context does nothing for your case, William. I've already posted the context that you ignored and continue to ignore - context that shows that it was the "shocking haste" with which Virginia rushed Brown to the gallows that evoked the sympathy of the North and made him a national hero.

I continue to post them because you continue to ignore them, as it goes against your belief................
I apologize...........I forgot.............It is a one-sided history, one that can not allow he North, or Lincoln to be seen in a bad light. Some, a great some in the North made him the hero they wanted.............

Respectfully,

William

 

[Elennsar]

He didn't cause the death of innocent people ? He didn't attack a Federal facility ? He received his wounds while committing a crime. Brown hung and rightfully so.................

Respectfully,

William

Whether or not he rightly hung, that could be just as well determined - if not better - by a trial that let him recover from his wounds, that did not push things as fast and hard as possible to ensure the penalty was death, and otherwise created the appearance of being more concerned with seeing him dead than whether that was seeing justice done.

I'm not interested in arguing for his innocence, but the concept that "he was a bad person and bad people don't get rights" is a repulsive philosophy whatever category I personally place Brown in.

The way his trial was handled implied, intentionally or not, that it was the philosophy that the South had over the issue. It is not unreasonable for the North to be outraged by that.

 

[W. Richardson]

Whether or not he rightly hung, that could be just as well determined - if not better - by a trial that let him recover from his wounds, that did not push things as fast and hard as possible to ensure the penalty was death, and otherwise created the appearance of being more concerned with seeing him dead than whether that was seeing justice done.

Or he could have not committed the crime he committed and he would not have been tried and hung............I am sure the North would have handled it in a much different way.............He would have gotten a medal and a slap on the back.


Respectfully,

William

 

[brass napoleon]

I continue to post them because you continue to ignore them, as it goes against your belief................
I apologize...........I forgot.............It is a one-sided history, one that can not allow he North, or Lincoln to be seen in a bad light. Some, a great some in the North made him the hero they wanted.............

Respectfully,

William

Or he could have not committed the crime he committed and he would not have been tried and hung............I am sure the North would have handled it in a much different way.............He would have gotten a medal and a slap on the back.


Respectfully,

William

Typical, William. So typical of you. You quote a couple passages out of context, then when you're confronted with the context, you resort to childish nonsense like the above.

 

[Elennsar]

Or he could have not committed the crime he committed and he would not have been tried and hung............I am sure the North would have handled it in a much different way.............He would have gotten a medal and a slap on the back.


Respectfully,

William

I pray that you are never asked to serve on a jury involving someone accused of murder. I'm not talking about him getting off unpunished, I'm talking about even murderers being entitled to a fair trial.

This is not some radical concept in 1859, only held by a few fringe idealists who think "fair" and "trial" should have anything to do with each other.

Are you seriously promoting Red Queen justice as long as its against (whatever category you put Brown in, I neither know or care)?

 

[brass napoleon]

......It is a one-sided history, one that can not allow he North, or Lincoln to be seen in a bad light...

It's YOU that appear to have the obsession with Lincoln, William. Nobody else mentioned him. But now that YOU have mentioned him, here's what HE said about John Brown:

Old John Brown has been executed for treason against a State. We cannot object, even though he agreed with us in thinking slavery wrong. That cannot excuse violence, bloodshed and treason. It could avail him nothing that he might think himself right. So, if we constitutionally elect a President, and therefore you undertake to destroy the Union, it will be our duty to deal with you as old John Brown has been dealt with. We shall try to do our duty. We hope and believe that in no section will a majority so act as to render such extreme measures necessary.

- Abraham Lincoln, December, 1859

Source: http://www.classicreader.com/book/3766/41/
​

 

[wilber6150]

They should have gave Brown a medal and set him free...........Right ? That is what the North would have done.....He was hung just as he should have and it is a total disgrace for anyone to honor him at all.

Respectfully,

William

So dying to keep men enslaved make someone a hero but dying to free them makes then a disgrace?

 

[Elennsar]

Okay, as one of the few people who list Brown as a fanatic in a good sense, I'm going to state this now:

I don't mind if William thinks Brown was a murderer, regardless of his cause.

That's a legitimate position, and its legally true.

What I do mind is the idea that we can just ignore whether his trial was fair, because Brown being condemned is more important than fair trials.

That's not justice. That's murder in itself.