Davis Jeff Davis & Native Americans

[JerseyBart]

Here's what I'm done with: some members knowingly post insulting, flaming, trolling etc. comments about other members and get reported. You know who you are, other members know who you are and unfortunately for you...the moderation staff knows who you are. Those same members get insulting, flaming, trolling comments posted about themselves and report them. If you want to be taken seriously, don't do what you complain is being done to you. Legitimate reports get handled. The gaggle of 'he did to me what I'm doing to him," are a different story.

Posted as moderator

 

[Nathanb1]

Hey, Rebforever. Just FYI. George Baylor was the most blatantly racist, Native-hating Texan around except for maybe a couple of my ancestors. So I wouldn't defend the guy too much. You can check out his bio on the Handbook of Texas Online by googling. And maybe look up a little rag called The White Man and his activities re the reservation on the Brazos.

Any questions? Just PM me if you need more.

 

[Rebforever]

Hey, Rebforever. Just FYI. George Baylor was the most blatantly racist, Native-hating Texan around except for maybe a couple of my ancestors. So I wouldn't defend the guy too much. You can check out his bio on the Handbook of Texas Online by googling. And maybe look up a little rag called The White Man and his activities re the reservation on the Brazos.

Any questions? Just PM me if you need more.

I did not bring Baylor into the subject "
Jeff Davis & Native Americans"

I questioned who gave the orders to Davis concerning the Florida expansion
and what he did do.

 

[Philip Leigh]

It was nice of the Confederate congress to seat representatives from the Confederate sympathizing tribes. They didn't have a vote and the only thing they really got was a voice and a little incentive to stay Confederate.

While it is nice of you to add that the three Native American delegates to the Confederate congress were not permitted to vote, you should be aware that none of the tribes were members of the Confederacy. Logically, only members of the Confederacy were allowed voting representation. The Native American delegates were recognized as representatives of independent nations in alliance with the Confederacy by treaty. For clarification, if such is needed, there were no such Native American delegates in the Yankee congress.

 

[diane]

While it is nice of you to add that the three Native American delegates to the Confederate congress were not permitted to vote, you should be aware that none of the tribes were members of the Confederacy. Logically, only members of the Confederacy were allowed voting representation. The Native American delegates were recognized as representatives of independent nations in alliance with the Confederacy by treaty. For clarification, if such is needed, there were no such Native American delegates in the Yankee congress.

Why would there be? That Congress did not represent them or their government any more than China represented them. Neither wanted any part of the other. The tribes siding with the Confederacy had a wide variety of reasons to do so ranging from slavery to possible land restoration, and the Confederacy needed every friend it could muster to bolster its claim to being an independent nation. That's all seating the tribal representatives meant. As for the tribes not being members of the Confederacy, that's an interesting predicament, don't you think? Some of it was quite similar to what happened in Missouri and other border states, where the Confederates set up a government next door to the existing Union government and then claimed 13 stars on their flag. The tribes had the same sort of split, but it kept them from lining up with the Union - that was really the objective. So you didn't have Texas, where the Comanches, Apaches and Kiowa decided it was a good time to pick a fight for freedom - when the government was busy with alligators elsewhere.

 

[AndyHall]

Why would there be? That Congress did not represent them or their government any more than China represented them. Neither wanted any part of the other. The tribes siding with the Confederacy had a wide variety of reasons to do so ranging from slavery to possible land restoration, and the Confederacy needed every friend it could muster to bolster its claim to being an independent nation. That's all seating the tribal representatives meant. As for the tribes not being members of the Confederacy, that's an interesting predicament, don't you think? Some of it was quite similar to what happened in Missouri and other border states, where the Confederates set up a government next door to the existing Union government and then claimed 13 stars on their flag. The tribes had the same sort of split, but it kept them from lining up with the Union - that was really the objective. So you didn't have Texas, where the Comanches, Apaches and Kiowa decided it was a good time to pick a fight for freedom - when the government was busy with alligators elsewhere.

Just so. The Confederacy didn't need any more problems on its western fringes than it already had, so they made the appropriate gestures. Washington didn't have formal Indian delegates to the U.S. Congress, but there were delegations that made the rounds of D.C. regularly, including the White House.

Again, I don't think the Confederacy should be assumed to have been "better" as regards Native Peoples than the U.S. government, just because they didn't last long enough to trash their existing treaties, or devote real military resources to the so-called "Indian problem."

 

[leftyhunter]

At the risk of his life, in 1831-32 Lieutenant Jefferson Davis prevented Northern whites from poaching on Native American lead mines in Dubuque, Iowa Territory. By treaty, white men were to stay out of the region, leaving it to the Sauk and Fox Indians. But many nearby whites showed no respect for the treaty and repeatedly robbed the mines. Over a five-month period Davis apprehended trespassers even as some plotted to murder him. Ultimately he persuaded almost all offenders to leave the area.

In the first occasion of Indian participation in a white government, Jefferson Davis's Confederacy accepted three delegates from the Indian Nations in its Congress.

Per the book "The South divided" the CSA recruited Indians at the same time they killed plenty of Indians including women and children and many Indians deserted the CSA to fight for the Union. There are no good guys vs bad guys has far has the Indians where concerned. Either way the Indians are going to get the short end of the stick.
No one said Davis was not a competent US Army Officer or leader of the 1st Ms Rifles during the Mexican American War. Was he an effective leader of the CSA? Depends on who you ask.
Leftyhunter

 

[diane]

While we're talking about Jefferson Davis and Indians, we might note the tribes and bands his representatives were dealing with were tribes in Oklahoma, who had been deported from the South 30 years prior, by the US government. The CSA had no dealings with tribes and bands left in the South save to let them know nothing good would happen if they supported the Union. The Catawbas in South Carolina, for example, were down to less than 100 on the reservation - which would be called a rancheria in California - so nobody brought them roses and a box of candy. They were flat out told to be Confederate or be finished off. No tribe was more Confederate! The bits and pieces of the people left throughout the South had already been either isolated or subjugated, lumped under the term 'colored' and many of the same laws that applied to blacks applied to them, including slavery. No control issues there. However, poking the eye of the Federals was always useful and that's what the recruitment of the larger tribes meant as well.

 

[leftyhunter]

At the risk of his life, in 1831-32 Lieutenant Jefferson Davis prevented Northern whites from poaching on Native American lead mines in Dubuque, Iowa Territory. By treaty, white men were to stay out of the region, leaving it to the Sauk and Fox Indians. But many nearby whites showed no respect for the treaty and repeatedly robbed the mines. Over a five-month period Davis apprehended trespassers even as some plotted to murder him. Ultimately he persuaded almost all offenders to leave the area.

In the first occasion of Indian participation in a white government, Jefferson Davis's Confederacy accepted three delegates from the Indian Nations in its Congress.

You forgot to add the Lumby Tribe of Nc who's members where enslaved by the CSA to build fortifications and they also fought against the CSA has guerrillas.
Leftyhunter

 

[Elennsar]

While we're talking about Jefferson Davis and Indians, we might note the tribes and bands his representatives were dealing with were tribes in Oklahoma, who had been deported from the South 30 years prior, by the US government. The CSA had no dealings with tribes and bands left in the South save to let them know nothing good would happen if they supported the Union. The Catawbas in South Carolina, for example, were down to less than 100 on the reservation - which would be called a rancheria in California - so nobody brought them roses and a box of candy. They were flat out told to be Confederate or be finished off. No tribe was more Confederate! The bits and pieces of the people left throughout the South had already been either isolated or subjugated, lumped under the term 'colored' and many of the same laws that applied to blacks applied to them, including slavery. No control issues there. However, poking the eye of the Federals was always useful and that's what the recruitment of the larger tribes meant as well.

I'd ask for where exactly that on the Catawbas is from, but I don't actually want to read more.

How much did Davis deal with that and how much was that a SC level issue, though? Not to say it doesn't belong here, just wondering if they even bothered Richmond about it.

 

[diane]

I'd ask for where exactly that on the Catawbas is from, but I don't actually want to read more.

How much did Davis deal with that and how much was that a SC level issue, though? Not to say it doesn't belong here, just wondering if they even bothered Richmond about it.

Actually, that's family tradition. My Catawba ancestors were with the ANV clear to Appomattox. I was steered wrong with reading some present-day writing that indicated the tribe went happily with the Confederates but since came back on the correct path. Neighbors of the Catawbas, whose reservation is near Rock Hill, knew that their treaty was with the United States and informed them if they tried to be Union or neutral, they would be burned out. Not much to burn, mind, but not much is all they had. Every able-bodied man signed right up - some fifteen all told, most from my family, the Harrises, Cantys and Ayres. All of them were shot up considerably, some permanently disabled, and two were killed.

Davis probably didn't know the Catawba existed, so I'd say it was South Carolina. Other tribal people were not threatened because none of them had reservations. Sherman passed the reservation without incident but there were some Indian houses and crops destroyed. Since he was some considerable distance out of the way, I doubt it was his bummers or anyone associated with him.

 

[Elennsar]

Ugly mess somehow seems to be not strong enough language for that.

 

[leftyhunter]

I have not seen or forgot how many Indians fought with one side vs the other. When we say this many Indians fought for the Union or the CSA how many served in conventional military units vs part-time militia? I know Indians served has both and obviously the conventional units are the most valuable.
Leftyhunter