Is this a civil war shell?

[redbob]

I apologize again for the lack of measurements. I will post measurements early next week when I return home.
I got this object from an antique store so I have no way of knowing where it came from originally but for what it's worth the antique store is in close proximity to Dahlgren Naval base and also only 45 minutes from Fredericksburg VA. or Richmond VA.

I believe that the "Dahlgren" part could play into this mystery.

 

[kevikens]

I apologize again for the lack of measurements. I will post measurements early next week when I return home.
I got this object from an antique store so I have no way of knowing where it came from originally but for what it's worth the antique store is in close proximity to Dahlgren Naval base and also only 45 minutes from Fredericksburg VA. or Richmond VA.

Now, that's an interesting piece of information since that installation did a great deal of experimental research at one time (it still may). If that is the case it could be either Civil War era and the projectile designed for use against CS ironclads or it could be post CW usage for use against European armored vessels, perhaps something to stuff down the barrels of those big 15 inch Columbiads or Rodmans at shore fortification installations> In any event I would have bought it too, if I could carry it to the car.

 

[Story]

Dahlgren became a naval facility in 1918.

 

[kevikens]

Oh, well. with a name like Dahlgren I thought it went back a lot further. Was there an earlier, smaller facility at that site before it became the Dahlgren facility?

 

[Story]

Unless dug out of the ground, where an artifact was *found* isn't a good clue to where it was produced.

Turn the question around - who was desperate enough for armor piercing rounds that they'd cobble up something like this?

 

[kevikens]

Perhaps the OP could return to the place of purchase and ask about that.

 

[rebelatsea]

No question about a bolt like that going through and through on a tinclad. I seem to recall that Confederates on the CSS Virginia shipped some of these bolts on board after their initial battle with the Monitor. Backed by enough powder I think they would have done serious damage to a monitor class ironclad. If it were done as plunging fire, say from Drury's or Vicksburg's Bluffs a hit could be catastrophic. What the original poster needs to tell us, besides the weight, is its provenance. Where did it come from? OP if this is a Civil War bolt it is quite a find

The projectiles supplied to CSS Virginia after Hampton Roads were Brooke 7" rifled 114lb shot, one source says with with steel points. At the range the action took place at they would have indeed gone straight through the Monitor's turret armour.
If indeed the OPs object is a sabot fitted 4.5 inch bolt, it would have riddled a union tinclad, and even the city class side armour would have been vulnerable to it.

 

[Patrick H]

Interesting discussion. Welcome from Missouri!

 

[Story]

Perhaps the OP could return to the place of purchase and ask about that.

No, I meant that to be a question for 'us' (here) to solve. OP's sellers most likely know doodly.

 

[sbennett1298]

Hear are the measurements I took today and another photo of the bottom.

Diameter 4.5 inches
Height 9.5 inches
Diameter of cavity 2.25 inches
Depth of cavity. 2.5 inches
Weight 23.15 lbs.

I don't know how accurate the weight is. I did not have a scale so I constructed a crude balance beam
from household objects using a concrete dumbell weight. It should be in the ballpark.
Here is the new picture of the bottom.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/71127000@N08/albums/72157682474845981

 

[kevikens]

Welcome from Pittsburgh!

Hear are the measurements I took today and another photo of the bottom.

Diameter 4.5 inches
Height 9.5 inches
Diameter of cavity 2.25 inches
Depth of cavity. 2.5 inches
Weight 23.15 lbs.

I don't know how accurate the weight is. I did not have a scale so I constructed a crude balance beam
from household objects using a concrete dumbell weight. It should be in the ballpark.
Here is the new picture of the bottom.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/71127000@N08/albums/72157682474845981

I looked at a chart I have of CW artillery shells. From what you wrote I thought possibly a 20 lb. Parrott rifle but the bore of that gun is 3.67 inches. There is a 24 lb. gun but its diameter is almost six inches. The Napoleon field piece is 4.62 in diameter but is a 12 lb. gun, although a solid armor piercing shell made to fit the bore might weigh twice that. What we need here is someone who is an expert in artillery projectiles and the guns that shoot them.

 

[Story]

Hear are the measurements I took today and another photo of the bottom.

Diameter 4.5 inches
Height 9.5 inches
Diameter of cavity 2.25 inches
Depth of cavity. 2.5 inches
Weight 23.15 lbs.

I don't know how accurate the weight is. I did not have a scale so I constructed a crude balance beam
from household objects using a concrete dumbell weight. It should be in the ballpark.
Here is the new picture of the bottom.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/71127000@N08/albums/72157682474845981

Is that 4.5" exactly, or just under 4.5"?

sbennett1298

The Cavity in base of your iron doorstop was probably for a press-fitted stud, that held a (now missing) disc sabot.

Rifled artillery projectile, Tennessee design, Confederate manufacture, solid bolt, pattern with pointed nose and bourrelet rings, rings milled smooth to convert to smaller caliber, copper disc sabot with 3 studs in the sabot and flush mounted bolt, Confederate 30 pounder rifle, 4.2 in. Projectile started out as a Tennessee bolt, 4.5in. caliber with bourrelet rings, which would presumably have been intended for a rifled 12 pounder.
View attachment 140905

What we need here is someone who is an expert in artillery projectiles and the guns that shoot them.

Until then, we have fresh information to use. If this is a Confederate APDS emergency production round for use against Yankee gunboats/tinclads, then it may have been cast as close to the bore diameter of the intended gun tubes & without bourrelet rings.

30 lb Siege Gun is a 4.5", designed to lob 30 lb shells. Someone cranking out home-brewed APDS bolts might have been casting them real close, particularly if you add in the weight of the missing sabot and the stud.
http://civilwarwiki.net/wiki/4.5_inch_Siege_Rifle

 

[Story]

...and just to be my own Devil's Advocate, it could be an unfinished 4.7" naval gun drill projectile casting, without the driving ring fitted. However, those shells weighed 50 lbs fully finished.

 

[sbennett1298]

Is that 4.5" exactly, or just under 4.5"?

Without using a micrometer as near as I can tell it is exactly 4.5"
I'm using a machinist scale which has 1/64ths on it.
I think I'm within 15 thousandths.
That's about as exact as you can get on an unmachined casting.





Until then, we have fresh information to use. If this is a Confederate APDS emergency production round for use against Yankee gunboats/tinclads, then it may have been cast as close to the bore diameter of the intended gun tubes & without bourrelet rings.

30 lb Siege Gun is a 4.5", designed to lob 30 lb shells. Someone cranking out home-brewed APDS bolts might have been casting them real close, particularly if you add in the weight of the missing sabot and the stud.
http://civilwarwiki.net/wiki/4.5_inch_Siege_Rifle

 

[sbennett1298]

Wish I could match that 44 on the bottom to something. Maybe it was just the mold number.

 

[sbennett1298]

Now, that's an interesting piece of information since that installation did a great deal of experimental research at one time (it still may). If that is the case it could be either Civil War era and the projectile designed for use against CS ironclads or it could be post CW usage for use against European armored vessels, perhaps something to stuff down the barrels of those big 15 inch Columbiads or Rodmans at shore fortification installations> In any event I would have bought it too, if I could carry it to the car.

They still experiment at Dahlgren. My office is about a block away from the electromagnetic rail gun.

 

[sbennett1298]

Perhaps the OP could return to the place of purchase and ask about that.

The antique store was a consignment shop with many vendors. Not sure which vendor I got it from if if that vendor is still there. Unless I can find the tag that was on it.

 

[Seduzal]

Welcome to CWT from the Smoky Mountain side of North Carolina.

 

[sbennett1298]

Is that 4.5" exactly, or just under 4.5"?







Until then, we have fresh information to use. If this is a Confederate APDS emergency production round for use against Yankee gunboats/tinclads, then it may have been cast as close to the bore diameter of the intended gun tubes & without bourrelet rings.

30 lb Siege Gun is a 4.5", designed to lob 30 lb shells. Someone cranking out home-brewed APDS bolts might have been casting them real close, particularly if you add in the weight of the missing sabot and the stud.
http://civilwarwiki.net/wiki/4.5_inch_Siege_Rifle

Oh this is funny. I looked at your link and that Siege rifle is just up the road from me. I'm in Fredericksburg.
Should I take the shell up there and try it? LOL
Guess not.

 

[Story]

Should I take the shell up there and try it? LOL
Guess not.

1. Take someone with you to film that, sounds like pure YouTube gold.
2. Grease it first. ;-)