Is the wrong Regiment on his grave?

[Deleted member 8452]

While doing research on my ancestors William A Martin (abt.1840-1879) and his brother Richard (abt.1836 -1896) I came across William Martin's grave where he is buried in Iredell County.



But I think he has the wrong regiment on his grave...


William's brother Richard served in thee 33rd North Carolina Infantry Company A of Iredell County, and is shown to be enlisting February 1st, 1862 with the unit and being from Iredell County. Also enlisting in the 33rd North Carolina Company A on the Same Day is a William A Martin , also from Iredell. and I got confused as in the 1860 census, William A is listed as the only William Martin of proper age to serve. I jsut fnd it likely that he would serve with his brother the same day, rather than another regiment.

William Martn is listed in the 1850 census/1870 census/ and a 1880 Morality Census claiming he died in September 1879. I put up the 1850 census to show his relationship to Richard Martin, Richard Martin also appears on the 1870 and 1880 census in Iredell County, no 1890 census exist before his death. For some reason though I cannot find Richard Martin in the 1860 census.

1850 Census

Now lets look at the 11th North Carolina William Martin of Company E that this grave says he is, the William Martin have his age being around 19 at an enlistment of 1842/1843. 11th North Carolina Company E was mostly from Mecklenburg County, to the south of Iredell, but it did also include men from Iredell County. Though, the William Martin. He is listed as being from Mecklenburg County, rather than Iredell. Now it could remain possible he just enlisted in Mecklenburg County, despite living in Iredell County, but look at the regimental roster, it list the county of enlistment as the county the soldier is from.

as you can see William Martin is listing Mecklenburg County as his residence, despite the fact that there are men such as that Murdoch, listing their residence as Iredell. And we No William A Martin was living in Iredell in 1860, and i highly find it unlikely who moved to Mecklenburg County within the year. Especially as the 1870 census has him listed as still living in Iredell County.

Now look at the Fold 3 records of this William Martin in the 11th North Carolina Company E, and he has a birth date of about 1842/1843 and also appears as W.H. Martin in other fold 3 records, but looking at the W.H. Martin profile shows the "H" looks more like a "M"

So lets see if there is a William M. Martin in Mecklenburg County who fits a description and birth date of with this enlistment.

After searching the 1860 census, I found only one William Martin with a date that could make him eligible for civil war service. But it puts his Birth at about 1845 2 years, shy of the 1843 were looking for, but looking at the 1870 census, William Martin appears with the Middle Initial "M". As for the age putting his birth date around 1842/1843 rather than the 1845/1846 birth date he really had according to the census, well it possibly he lied about his age to get into the army earlier.

Now does the 33rd North Carolina list William A Martin's age, yes it does, it puts his age at 23 or 22 which is a little off, about 1839 or 1840 birth date, but again look at William A Martin's morality listing

Also to finish it, on Fold 3 you should reflect their services with their health. As you can see William A Martin had poor health and died around 40 years old, not living very long. the 33rd NC William Martin is listed as being sick and even suffering a hernia during the war. While the 11th NC William Martin is relatively healthy never being sick except for a temporary time after being wounded in Gettysburg. I believe i found William M Martin of Mecklenburg to continue living in the 1900s.

So In Conclusion and through what evidence i have, I believe that grave is incorrectly labeled, and that the William Martin buried there served with the 33rd North Carolina Infantry, not the 11th North Carolina Infantry.

Most likely when that grave was put up they mistake the two when looking for records, and the fact that company E of 11th NC contained men from Iredell County, may have mixed him up, but I believe with all the stuff shown above William A Martin or Iredell served with his brother in the 33rd North Carolina Infantry.

 

[AndyHall]

Good sleuthing.

That appears to be a modern, VA-provided headstone. Unfortunately the VA has neither the mission nor resources to get down into the weeds to verify the research on grave marker applications, and with a relatively common name like William Martin it's easy for anyone to mis-identify someone.

Case in point: during World War II, in Operation Mincemeat -- where the British famously planted fake invasion correspondence on a corpse dressed like a military courier, and dropped it off a Spanish beach where the Germans were likely to get hold of the documents -- they intentionally gave the dead man the identity of "Major William Martin," specifically because it was a common name that couldn't be easily traced or verified.

 

[Deleted member 8452]

Good sleuthing.

That appears to be a modern, VA-provided headstone. Unfortunately the VA has neither the mission nor resources to get down into the weeds to verify the research on grave marker applications, and with a relatively common name like William Martin it's easy for anyone to mis-identify someone.

Case in point: during World War II, in Operation Mincemeat -- where the British famously planted fake invasion correspondence on a corpse dressed like a military courier, and dropped it off a Spanish beach where the Germans were likely to get hold of the documents -- they intentionally gave the dead man the identity of "Major William Martin," specifically because it was a common name that couldn't be easily traced or verified.

So do you think with the info I have, do you think that William A Martin's grave is incorrect and he served in the 33rd NC?

 

[AndyHall]

I do think you make a good circumstantial case -- which is really about as close as one can get, all these years later.

 

[Deleted member 8452]

I do think you make a good circumstantial case -- which is really about as close as one can get, all these years later.

I wonder who I should contact, SCV?

 

[AndyHall]

The cemetery should be able to tell you who had the stone placed. (The local SCV camp is likely, but not certain.) Whether or not that person or group is willing to acknowledge an error, much less work actively to correct it, is an open question. I've seen a number of VA-supplied headstones that have been shown to be demonstrably wrong, and (sad to say) am not aware of any of them being corrected or recognized by the groups that placed them initially.

 

[Deleted member 8452]

The cemetery should be able to tell you who had the stone placed. (The local SCV camp is likely, but not certain.) Whether or not that person or group is willing to acknowledge an error, much less work actively to correct it, is an open question. I've seen a number of VA-supplied headstones that have been shown to be demonstrably wrong, and (sad to say) am not aware of any of them being corrected or recognized by the groups that placed them initially.

Even if is does not get corrected, i feel at the least obligated to let them know, not just for William A Martin, but for the William M Martin of the 11th NC as well and any of his descendents

 

[AndyHall]

Even if is does not get corrected, i feel at the least obligated to let them know, not just for William A Martin, but for the William M Martin of the 11th NC as well and any of his descendents

I agree entirely. There's an obligation to get these things right.

 

[Allie]

Have you looked at the dates of service and established that he could not have served in both? I have a Pennsylvania ancestor who has an unexpected regiment on his grave, and a close look at the pension records reveals that unless there were duplicate men with the exact same unusual name and date of death, he served in both at different times. His brother served in three unrelated regiments, and there's no question there because all three are listed on a single pension card with his wife and son and death date on it.

As Andy says, anyone can ask for a stone at any time, and I believe sometimes amateur family researchers do mistakenly decide that their ancestor is the one mentioned in a record. But be careful going off half-cocked. In the case of John West who served in co m of the 7th TN cavalry, I thought I had found such a case - there is only one record for John West in the combined service records, but John B West has a military stone with col M 7th Tn Cav on it and John William West, a completely different man with a different family, has a detailed pension application made by his wife which matches all the details in the record as well as a daughter who married the son of a man in company M (which makes it unlikely she would get away with lying about her husband's service). But further investigation revealed that the stone was placed in the 1920's by a son of John B's who would almost certainly have known his father's service - I currently believe both John Wests served and their records were mistakenly combined by the National Archives. Some records show J West and some John West and the index card states they were combined.

There should be records of who made the request for your guy's headstone - I don't know how to get those when they are modern, although early ones are listed on Ancestry. Maybe you can request the information from the VA?

 

[Deleted member 8452]

Have you looked at the dates of service and established that he could not have served in both? I have a Pennsylvania ancestor who has an unexpected regiment on his grave, and a close look at the pension records reveals that unless there were duplicate men with the exact same unusual name and date of death, he served in both at different times. His brother served in three unrelated regiments, and there's no question there because all three are listed on a single pension card with his wife and son and death date on it.

As Andy says, anyone can ask for a stone at any time, and I believe sometimes amateur family researchers do mistakenly decide that their ancestor is the one mentioned in a record. But be careful going off half-cocked. In the case of John West who served in co m of the 7th TN cavalry, I thought I had found such a case - there is only one record for John West in the combined service records, but John B West has a military stone with col M 7th Tn Cav on it and John William West, a completely different man with a different family, has a detailed pension application made by his wife which matches all the details in the record as well as a daughter who married the son of a man in company M (which makes it unlikely she would get away with lying about her husband's service). But further investigation revealed that the stone was placed in the 1920's by a son of John B's who would almost certainly have known his father's service - I currently believe both John Wests served and their records were mistakenly combined by the National Archives. Some records show J West and some John West and the index card states they were combined.

There should be records of who made the request for your guy's headstone - I don't know how to get those when they are modern, although early ones are listed on Ancestry. Maybe you can request the information from the VA?

William A Martin of the 33rd North Carolina enlisted on February 1st, 1862 and was discharged in Late November 1863 due to reasons of Illness

William M Martin of the 11th North Carolina enlisted on March 5th, 1862 and was present with the regiment till his capture at Petersburg in February 1865, later paroled at the end of the war.

Unless William had the ability to teleport, These aren't the same people.

 

[Allie]

William A Martin of the 33rd North Carolina enlisted on February 1st, 1862 and was discharged in Late November 1863 due to reasons of Illness

William M Martin of the 11th North Carolina enlisted on March 5th, 1862 and was present with the regiment till his capture at Petersburg in February 1865, later paroled at the end of the war.

Unless William had the ability to teleport, These aren't the same people.

Well, I think you definitely have a good enough case to start making inquiries about the headstone.

Just out of curiosity do you know where the other William is buried?

 

[Deleted member 8452]

Well, I think you definitely have a good enough case to start making inquiries about the headstone.

Just out of curiosity do you know where the other William is buried?

No idea, but if I'm right he is listed as living in Mecklenburg County, NC in 1910

 

[AndyHall]

Finding an obituary or something else that positively identifies the William Martin in Mecklenburg County as the veteran from the 11th NC would help cinch the case. I didn't find anything in the Confederate Veteran magazine.

 

[Deleted member 8452]

Finding an obituary or something else that positively identifies the William Martin in Mecklenburg County as the veteran from the 11th NC would help cinch the case. I didn't find anything in the Confederate Veteran magazine.

I could check pensions, but looks like this William Martin of Mecklenburg never got married.

 

[AndyHall]

Pensions are available on FamilySearch (free subscription required). He might have had a pension in his own right, if he could demonstrate need.

https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1911763

 

[Allie]

I'm going to see what I can find about the Mecklenberg Martin. If either of his brothers served it might give more evidence, and maybe there are relatives out there somewhere.

 

[Allie]

Okay, I just got started, but I already found some people who mistakenly have your William A attached to the Mecklenberg William's parents. So it is very likely that there is someone out there who mistakenly put this stone in and I may even know who.

 

[Deleted member 8452]

Okay, I just got started, but I already found some people who mistakenly have your William A attached to the Mecklenberg William's parents. So it is very likely that there is someone out there who mistakenly put this stone in and I may even know who.

William A Parents with John B Martin and Susan Collins

 

[John Hartwell]

There is an obituary in the Charlotte Observer, (Mecklenburg Co.)25 Sept 1911, for William M. Martin, says he was veteran of Co. K, 56th N.C. I can copy & post the obit, if you like.

jno

 

[Deleted member 8452]

There is an obituary in the Charlotte Observer, (Mecklenburg Co.)25 Sept 1911, for William M. Martin, says he was veteran of Co. K, 56th N.C. I can copy & post the obit, if you like.

jno

Please do,

I also found out that William of Mecklenburg had brother who was in the same regiment and company.