NF Irrelevant Gettysburg Scenes

[Jeff in Ohio]

" The charge of the light brigade" was a great film, however it showed far more casualties than the actual charge, in fact only 17% of the 665 riders were casualties, not counting horses of course.

Older readers will remember the exposure of the unexpected cause of that monumental Charge of the Light Brigade revealed by the long-lost memoir published as Flashman at the Charge in 1973, which contained this passage that shows the charge was not sparked by orders or unbridled bravery, but by a coward's bout of gastric distress:

"It was an inferno of bursting shell and whistling fragments, of orange flame and choking smoke; a trooper alongside me was plucked from his saddle as though by an invisible hand, and I found myself drenched in a shower of blood. My little mare went surging ahead, crazy with pain. […] even in that hell of death and gunfire, I remember, my stomach was asserting itself again, and I rode yelling with panic and farting furiously at the same time. I couldn't hold my horse at all; it was all I could do to stay aboard as we raced onwards, and as I stared wildly ahead I saw that we were a bare few hundred yards from the Russian batteries.

The great black muzzles were staring me in the face, smoke wreathing up around them, but even as I saw the flame belching from them I couldn't hear the crash of their discharge—it was all lost in the fearful continuous reverberating cannonade that surrounded us. There was no stopping my mad career, and I found myself roaring pleas for mercy to the distant Russian gunners, crying stop, stop, for God's sake, cease fire, **** you, and let me alone."

 

[Cavalier]

@klongstreet I found your above comment interesting because I have been under the impression that the losses were much more than that. I have read 37% and another of 40% for the men and 52% for the horses. Because these figures are so different I am curious about what your sources are. I thought mine were pretty good but maybe not.

I am curious as to what you think of the 1968 movie version of The Charge of The Light Brigade with Trevor Howard, if you have seen that.

John

 

[klongstreet]

@klongstreet I found your above comment interesting because I have been under the impression that the losses were much more than that. I have read 37% and another of 40% for the men and 52% for the horses. Because these figures are so different I am curious about what your sources are. I thought mine were pretty good but maybe not.

I am curious as to what you think of the 1968 movie version of The Charge of The Light Brigade with Trevor Howard, if you have seen that.

John

You are correct Cavalier, most do give higher losses, Kingslake ( who witnessed the charge) gives us up to 70%, however this was a figure taken after the charge when troops were still making there way back. The best figures we have based on returns are 110 killed or died of wounds, 129 wounded and returned to lines, 32 wounded and taken prisoner. A total of 271, we know 666 rode the charge which gives us 395 rode the one and a quater miles and returned with minor wounds not reported to surgeons. Horses 56% killed.
" Hell Riders" Terry Brighton................very informative book worth reading, hope this helps.

 

[James N.]

This post caused me to look up a bit of info on that charge of the Scots Greys at Waterloo.
That painting shows horses at the full gallop, but the standard info is that the Scots Greys went forward at the walk and then the canter, but the ground was too broken for them to achieve a gallop - aside from the rough ground, the path was clogged by soldiers who had gone forward, and either stopped or pushed back.
It is a great painting, though, and I'm going to go look at that movie Waterloo again.
Among other reasons, since I first saw it, I've acquired one of those great Model 1796 light cavalry swords, the model with the wide, heavy top, and a Dutch/Germanic military jaeger rifle that's just the right age for use that the time of that battle.

The real problem for charging cavalry at Waterloo was the deep MUD that slowed everything to a crawl, including the horses. Similarly, the French cavalry in their attacks were forced to "charge" at something more like a walk or at best a trot.

 

[Llewellyn]

@klongstreet I found your above comment interesting because I have been under the impression that the losses were much more than that. I have read 37% and another of 40% for the men and 52% for the horses. Because these figures are so different I am curious about what your sources are. I thought mine were pretty good but maybe not.

I am curious as to what you think of the 1968 movie version of The Charge of The Light Brigade with Trevor Howard, if you have seen that.

John

I am pretty sure that British fatalities during the charge were in the region of 17% (about 110 out of 660 chargers.) There were many more wounded, so adding all casualties, dead and wounded, the losses were about 55%.

That's human casualties of course - goodness knows how many innocent dumb creatures were killed. One four legged survivor is often forgotten; Jenny, or Jemmy, a rough haired terrier who was a pet and rodent control operator belonging to the 8th Hussars. The 8th were in the third and last line of the Brigade, and Jenny loyally followed her master all the way down the valley to the Russian guns, and then back again. She was slightly wounded, but survived to return to Ireland with the 8th where the Colonel presented her with a special collar bearing the names of the Crimean battles where she was present. A further battle honour for Central India was added a few years later, though she was drowned there whilst attempting to cross a river.

The 1968 film is very watchable, but you have to be wary of gross inaccuracies - the Nolan character, played by David Hemmings, was not the object of Cardigan's ire in the "Black Bottle Affair." Whilst the film pokes fun at the bumptious and incompetent British officer class of the era, this certainly seems to be justified criticism - how Raglan sitting on the heights did not appreciate that he could see things that Lucan and Cardigan down in the valley could not see is almost unbelievable. At least the courage of all concerned is recognised. Cardigan's remark, as he took position at the head of the Brigade, "Well, here goes the last of the Brudenells" shows that he did not expect to survive. (Brudenell was the family name of the Earl of Cardigan. In 2020 the title still exists, as a lesser title of the Marquess of Ailesbury, and borne as a courtesy title by his eldest son who lives near Marlborough in Wiltshire. The family name is now Brudenell-Bruce.)

 

[Cavalier]

My sources were The Reason Why by Woodham-Smith and The Charge by Adkin. I have heard of Hell Riders but don't have it yet. Perhaps Santa -------?

Your comments were very helpful, thank you very much.

John

 

[Cavalier]

@Jeff in Ohio Flashman At The Charge. I really enjoyed that series of books. I still have most of them but haven't read them since the seventies. Great fun they were too.

 

[Cavalier]

@Llewellyn I don't remember hearing about the terrier. Thanks for that bit of regimental history and traditions, (The British Army seems to do that stuff well).

I know the movie has some problems as far as accuracy is concerned and it was made at a time the military was not popular, at least here in the U.S. So making any military institution look foolish was the in thing to do. Not that some things about the charge don't seem foolish. It was certainly an example of courage, as you indicated

Also, thanks for explaining about the present day holder of the family title. That stuff always leaves me baffled.

Issues not withstanding its a fun movie to watch and I liked the look things generally, all seems very Victorian to me. And the depictions of the charge itself really were impressive I thought.

John

John

 

[Llewellyn]

@Jeff in Ohio Flashman At The Charge. I really enjoyed that series of books. I still have most of them but haven't read them since the seventies. Great fun they were too.

George Macdonald Fraser's character of Flashman is a great way of learning 19th century history. Fraser weaves the fictitious Flashy into real events, meeting real historical personalities, but you somehow know what is real and what is comic invention.

 

[Llewellyn]

@Llewellyn I don't remember hearing about the terrier. Thanks for that bit of regimental history and traditions, (The British Army seems to do that stuff well).

John

John

You have mentioned The Charge by Adkin as one of your sources.
There is a double page sketch in the book showing the entire brigade in attack formation just before they started to advance at the walk. Various individuals are identified by a number, and there is a key, a list, which puts a name to each number. Jenny (Adkin calls her Jemmy) is sketched in behind the centre of the 8th Hussars and she is numbered and identified in the key list.
Have a look if you still have a copy of the book.
I'm assuming that US published versions are identical to UK versions, of course.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

George Macdonald Fraser's character of Flashman is a great way of learning 19th century history. Fraser weaves the fictitious Flashy into real events, meeting real historical personalities, but you somehow know what is real and what is comic invention.

Yes, this series of books is a good way of soaking up some real history. Flashman found that he could learn foreign languages from the various foreign speaking ladies whom he bedded.

 

[Cavalier]

@Llewellyn Pulled out my Adkin book and there is the dog. I forgot all about that dog. I tried to get the Hell Riders book on inter library loan some time back but they couldn't get it. Thanks for calling that to my attention. I would claim a senior moment but these moments seem to be turning into days. Anyway it's a great book.

I think the problem with Hell Riders might be because it was published in Britain but not sure. But I'm going to read the Adkin book again. That's the good thing about owning a book, especially for old &%$#% like me.

Thanks!

John

 

[Cavalier]

@Jeff in Ohio I would think the Flashman method would be an effective learning tool for acquiring fluency in a foreign language.

John

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

@Jeff in Ohio I would think the Flashman method would be an effective learning tool for acquiring fluency in a foreign language.

John

I will suggest that to my wife

 

[FPT]

@Llewellyn Pulled out my Adkin book and there is the dog. I forgot all about that dog. I tried to get the Hell Riders book on inter library loan some time back but they couldn't get it. Thanks for calling that to my attention. I would claim a senior moment but these moments seem to be turning into days. Anyway it's a great book.

I think the problem with Hell Riders might be because it was published in Britain but not sure. But I'm going to read the Adkin book again. That's the good thing about owning a book, especially for old &%$#% like me.

Thanks!

John

I resemble that last remark!

FPT

 

[klongstreet]

The real problem for charging cavalry at Waterloo was the deep MUD that slowed everything to a crawl, including the horses. Similarly, the French cavalry in their attacks were forced to "charge" at something more like a walk or at best a trot.

The battlefield detectives looked into this and called it " The massacre at Waterloo"....very apt discription when considering the carnage the Anglo-Dutch-German infantry and cannon caused to the French whilst attacking in knee deep thick cloying mud.

 

[klongstreet]

@Llewellyn Pulled out my Adkin book and there is the dog. I forgot all about that dog. I tried to get the Hell Riders book on inter library loan some time back but they couldn't get it. Thanks for calling that to my attention. I would claim a senior moment but these moments seem to be turning into days. Anyway it's a great book.

I think the problem with Hell Riders might be because it was published in Britain but not sure. But I'm going to read the Adkin book again. That's the good thing about owning a book, especially for old &%$#% like me.

Thanks!

John

Cavaller, if interested, i am willing to get a copy of Hell Riders and send it to you from across the pond, just pm me with address.

 

[Niagara1864]

I think the scene where Kilrain finds a "runaway" slave at Gettysburg is irrelevant. The 20th Maine had supposedly marched over 30 miles that day, and somehow it was still daylight out. Instead of being exhausted and getting sleep they become concerned over this runaway who is just minding his own business. Even Colonel Chamberlain who has major responsibilities in his charge finds time to look at this runaway like it was a rare occurrence. I know they are trying to fill a narrative but c'mon.

 

[Cavalier]

@klongstreet That is a very kind offer and I thank you very much! I have been talking to my son in law who is a computer whiz about this book this evening and he says he can get a copy for me. (I live with my daughter and son in law).

To be honest my computer knowledge is so limited I am not even sure I could figure out how to pm anybody.

But once again I want you to know how much I appreciate your most kind offer. When I get my hands on the book I will let you know in the non civil war topics section of this site on what I think of it.

John

 

[James N.]

... I think the problem with Hell Riders might be because it was published in Britain but not sure. But I'm going to read the Adkin book again. That's the good thing about owning a book, especially for old &%$#% like me.

Don't consider yourself alone! This year because of the d*mn VIRUS I FINALLY sat out on my deck this spring-into-summer and read cover-to-cover one of my absolute treasures - The Campaigns of Napoleon, autographed at a wargame/historical convention held in Fort Worth, Texas ca. 1985 by its author David Chandler! Even by then I'd owned it for over a decade, having purchased it from a mail-order remaindered book catalog for even less than its then list price of $17.95. (It's still in print and sells for $50-$75.) Although I'd read parts of it before, like the Austerlitz and Jena campaigns - my favorites - I'd always been put off before by its 1000+ pages. But now, along with Chandler's much shorter book on the Waterloo Campaign, John Elting's excellent study of Napoleon's armies Swords Around A Throne, and a few others, I can now say I've read it all!