Chattanooga Hooker at Chattanooga

[wausaubob]

That is interesting. You have a source that contradicts Grant. What is it & how can I access it?

The story that the breakthrough on Missionary Ridge was a miracle, and not a direct result of the constantly evolving federal plan, doesn't make sense.
The day opens with the US flags on top of Lookout Mountain. As Powell noted, the federal soldiers must have known that the Confederates had retreated if they took a flag along. By mid morning, most of the soldiers in both armies knew the siege had been broken.
Sherman's attacks were unsuccessful. But the battle noise had to be unmistakable. The Confederates knew Sherman's people had crossed the river and were engaged. General Bragg had to counter that. Because Sherman had the potential to cut off the route to the railroad and Dalton.
Hooker's divisions were delayed by the high water. But the sound of thousands of men moving through the woods, and felling trees to make an improvised crossing were audible on the west end of the line.
Then the four rearranged divisions of Baird, Wood, Sheridan and Johnson promptly appear and they are ready to charge the rifle pits in front of the ridge.
Bragg had already pulled the artillery away from the front of the ridge, which had to have an effect on the infantry left there. Those Confederates had been having a tough time once the US occupied Orchard Knob and contracted the camping space available to the Confederates. The psychological effect of what Hooker accomplished was profound.
The Confederate line was going to break left to right, and the Confederate soldiers made the wise calculation that there was no reason to sacrifice their lives for Missionary Ridge.

 

[Rhea Cole]

The story that the breakthrough on Missionary Ridge was a miracle, and not a direct result of the constantly evolving federal plan, doesn't make sense.
The day opens with the US flags on top of Lookout Mountain. As Powell noted, the federal soldiers must have known that the Confederates had retreated if they took a flag along. By mid morning, most of the soldiers in both armies knew the siege had been broken.
Sherman's attacks were unsuccessful. But the battle noise had to be unmistakable. The Confederates knew Sherman's people had crossed the river and were engaged. General Bragg had to counter that. Because Sherman had the potential to cut off the route to the railroad and Dalton.
Hooker's divisions were delayed by the high water. But the sound of thousands of men moving through the woods, and felling trees to make an improvised crossing were audible on the west end of the line.
Then the four rearranged divisions of Baird, Wood, Sheridan and Johnson promptly appear and they are ready to charge the rifle pits in front of the ridge.
Bragg had already pulled the artillery away from the front of the ridge, which had to have an effect on the infantry left there. Those Confederates had been having a tough time once the US occupied Orchard Knob and contracted the camping space available to the Confederates. The psychological effect of what Hooker accomplished was profound.
The Confederate line was going to break left to right, and the Confederate soldiers made the wise calculation that there was no reason to sacrifice their lives for Missionary Ridge.

I don't deal in miracles. The documented facts are all that interest me.

Once again, what are the citations & where can I access them? thank you.

 

[wausaubob]

Nobody is paying me and its not a brief to be filed in an appellate court. Aren't we doing this for fun?

 

[Rhea Cole]

Nobody is paying me and its not a brief to be filed in an appellate court. Aren't we doing this for fun?

If you don't have references, just say so.

 

[wausaubob]

By the time Grant wrote his memoirs Hooker had already died. George Thomas had died. Grant was dying. He had no reason to praise Hooker, who had fought Grant and Sherman all the way.

 

[Rhea Cole]

By the time Grant wrote his memoirs Hooker had already died. George Thomas had died. Grant was dying. He had no reason to praise Hooker, who had fought Grant and Sherman all the way.

 

[Rhea Cole]

It appears that the reference is to the Great Karnak who read Grant's mind. That explains it enough for me, thanks.

 

[W Charles Young]

Where was the rest of the AotP contingent? Guarding Bridgeport, Stevenson, and Lookout Mountain?

The other 12th Corps division was guarding the railroad from Nashville down. That was partly due to Slocum refusing to serve under Hooker. Howard's 11th Corps was with the A of C but would, during the fighting, be ordered to support Sherman.

 

[wausaubob]

General Hooker's accomplishments on November 24 were significant. But it is incorrect to write that the attack on Lookout Mountain was a secret plan. Clearing Lookout Mountain was always part of General Thomas' plan. And the bridges over the Tennessee River were swept away, and the divisions of Cruft and Osterhaus were left in Hooker's area, Grant went back to this portion of Thomas' plan. The success on Lookout Mountain meant the railroad connection was secure. When the bridge at Bridgeport was restored the US forces, and all their livestock could be resupplied by train traffic.
General Thomas wanted to wait and complete that resupply function. But the administration, President Lincoln to be precise, was demanding that something be done to relieve Burnside's force. Grant was willing to risk the casualties that would happen if the campaign was accelerated.
The more important question is why did the war continue after the US success at Chattanooga? The Confederacy had gained an enormous tactical victory in September in northern Georgia. But two months later the enormous advantage of the US in quartermaster and commissary function led to a complete US tactical victory at Chattanooga. Why did the killing continue?

 

[uaskme]

General Hooker's accomplishments on November 24 were significant. But it is incorrect to write that the attack on Lookout Mountain was a secret plan. Clearing Lookout Mountain was always part of General Thomas' plan. And the bridges over the Tennessee River were swept away, and the divisions of Cruft and Osterhaus were left in Hooker's area, Grant went back to this portion of Thomas' plan. The success on Lookout Mountain meant the railroad connection was secure. When the bridge at Bridgeport was restored the US forces, and all their livestock could be resupplied by train traffic.
General Thomas wanted to wait and complete that resupply function. But the administration, President Lincoln to be precise, was demanding that something be done to relieve Burnside's force. Grant was willing to risk the casualties that would happen if the campaign was accelerated.
The more important question is why did the war continue after the US success at Chattanooga? The Confederacy had gained an enormous tactical victory in September in northern Georgia. But two months later the enormous advantage of the US in quartermaster and commissary function led to a complete US tactical victory at Chattanooga. Why did the killing continue?

Grants plan wasn't a secret. To anybody who has studied this.

Getting ready to do a program about Lookout Mtn in about 10 minutes.

 

[gjpratt]

Grants plan wasn't a secret. To anybody who has studied this.

Getting ready to do a program about Lookout Mtn in about 10 minutes.

Please tell us all about your program.

 

[wausaubob]

I think Thomas and Smith had a better grasp of what Rosecrans had been planning. Rosecrans could not put his plans into action until Hooker's livestock began to arrive, with adequate forage. There was also some delay in waiting for the reinforcements under Sherman to arrive. Those reinforcements had to march most of the way from Memphis and cross the river on the available ferries.
The history of Chattanooga was affected by Grant's dissatisfaction with General Hooker not promptly reporting in person to Grant when Grant arrived at Bridgeport. In contrast, Rosecrans briefed Grant on the status at Chattanooga and O.O. Howard observed the proper protocol and reported in person to General Grant.
As noted above, General Slocum refused to serve under Hooker, and Slocum's divisions remained in Nashville or were stationed along the railroad. That diminished what Hooker could accomplish.

 

[uaskme]

Please tell us all about your program.

He did the Batteries on the Point of Moccasin Bend this morning. Did Reflection Riding this afternoon. You did that one. Crossing Lookout Creek and sweeping the west side of Lookout Mtn. He had short notice because of the shutdown. So it was limited to what he pieced together. 78 degrees this afternoon. Had to be a record or near it. Doing Bald Hill, which you did. Doing Brown's Ferry and a few at Sherman's Reserve.

I probably will miss a few of them. Done them repeatedly.

 

[uaskme]

I think Thomas and Smith had a better grasp of what Rosecrans had been planning. Rosecrans could not put his plans into action until Hooker's livestock began to arrive, with adequate forage. There was also some delay in waiting for the reinforcements under Sherman to arrive. Those reinforcements had to march most of the way from Memphis and cross the river on the available ferries.
The history of Chattanooga was affected by Grant's dissatisfaction with General Hooker not promptly reporting in person to Grant when Grant arrived at Bridgeport. In contrast, Rosecrans briefed Grant on the status at Chattanooga and O.O. Howard observed the proper protocol and reported in person to General Grant.
As noted above, General Slocum refused to serve under Hooker, and Slocum's divisions remained in Nashville or were stationed along the railroad. That diminished what Hooker could accomplish.

Sherman didn't like Hooker. Hooked and Sherman were in CA after the Mexican War. Sherman had a Bank Job. Invest money for his old Army buddies. One of those investments failed. Sherman told his buddies he would refund their money out of his own pocket. Hooker took him up on it. About bankrupted Sherman, Frick don't like you then Frack don't either. Probably other reason he didn't like him, who did? Post Chancellorsville, Gerry and O O Howard don't. Federals sent that crew. Probably to get rid of them. Grant certainly wasn't going to put Hooker or Thomas in a position to receive any kind of praise. Not intentionally anyway. Grant called Battle of Lookout Mtn a skirmish. If that was something he wanted. Why did he trash it?

 

[gjpratt]

He did the Batteries on the Point of Moccasin Bend this morning. Did Reflection Riding this afternoon. You did that one. Crossing Lookout Creek and sweeping the west side of Lookout Mtn. He had short notice because of the shutdown. So it was limited to what he pieced together. 78 degrees this afternoon. Had to be a record or near it. Doing Bald Hill, which you did. Doing Brown's Ferry and a few at Sherman's Reserve.

I probably will miss a few of them. Done them repeatedly.

Still sorry I was not able to come up.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Grant certainly wasn't going to put Hooker or Thomas in a position to receive any kind of praise. Not intentionally anyway. Grant called Battle of Lookout Mtn a skirmish. If that was something he wanted. Why did he trash it?

Nonsense. Grant's objective was to defeat the confederates. Who cares what he called Lookout Mountain? He ordered it and Hooker did it.

 

[uaskme]

Nonsense. Grant's objective was to defeat the confederates. Who cares what he called Lookout Mountain? He ordered it and Hooker did it.

Just not a Fact Based Person are you.

 

[uaskme]

Still sorry I was not able to come up

We will do it another time

 

[wausaubob]

General Meigs and the reporters liked the idea of the battle above the clouds. Grant knew that was an exaggeration. The Confederate position on Lookout Mountain was lightly defended because of the difficulty of supply soldiers that far west of the railroad. Still, the position had to be outflanked and the Confederates isolated. The traditional story of Chattanooga emphasizes the surprising result on Missionary Ridge on 11/25/63. But both sides saw the US flag go up on Lookout Mountain on the 25th. Both sides knew the siege was over. Sherman's force was successfully blocked by the Confederates on the 25th. But both armies could hear the noise from that part of the engagement. The willingness of the Confederate soldiers to fight in a losing battle, which had already been tested, was put to the test again. I think the standard story underestimates the cumulative effect of the several US successes that proceeded Missionary Ridge.
General Grant eventually went back to Chattanooga and toured the battlefields with George Thomas. And I think Grant was pleased that General Hooker had pursued the retreating Confederates after the 25th. Grant may have thought that Hooker accepted unnecessary casualties, but I think the conflict between Grant and Hooker began when General Hooker turned in his action report.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Just not a Fact Based Person are you.

Actually, that's exactly what I am. Some people are obsessed with injecting reality-show drama into history. Stick with the facts, and not lame imaginary dramas of what historical figures were thinking.