Henry Wirz

[O' Be Joyful]

From a previous thread on Andersonville and the NPS site.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/my...nd-we-took-care-of-yours.140951/#post-1703187

Like Elmira, Andersonville relied on outside sources for food and supplies. One of the reasons Andersonville was selected as a prison site was because of its proximity to agricultural production. The food shortages in Richmond and in the army in Virginia would be avoided by placing the prison in the middle of the breadbasket of the Confederacy. In theory, this would protect the prison from being cut off from the rest of the country if rail lines were destroyed. However, this failed in practice because the Confederate military relied on local farmers and companies that were less than willing to do business with the Confederacy. Simply put, area farmers did not want to sell their crops to the military at fixed government prices in Confederate currency. Further complicating this was that many of the large planters in Georgia refused to produce foodstuffs and insisted on continuing to grow cotton, which only drove prices for food higher. In an effort to alleviate this and to feed the prison, a "tithe" was placed on all food production, and area farmers were required to give 10% of their food crop to the Confederate military.

This was seen by many as an overreach by a government that claimed to carry the mantle of states' rights, and further alienated area farmers. By mid-1864 it was virtually impossible for the Confederate army at Andersonville to acquire anything, even if it was readily available. The challenge of purchasing food for the prison was exacerbated by the Confederacy's decision to centralize prisoners into one location – nearly one million pounds of cornmeal were required at Andersonville in August 1864 alone. These issues extended beyond food. Efforts to purchase lumber to build barracks and a dam across the creek were stifled when the shipyards in Columbus, GA could pay higher rates than the army could, which was constrained by a fixed pricing system. There was enough food and lumber in the area around Andersonville to greatly improve conditions, but because none of it was nationalized, the Confederate government could not get access to it. Accounts from some civilians and soldiers in the area describe warehouses of food that the owners wouldn't sell for anything except gold or greenbacks, leaving prisoners hungry, and forcing guards to purchase necessary supplies on their own.

https://www.nps.gov/ande/learn/historyculture/debateoverprisonsupplies.htm​

 

[cash]

You are comparing apples to oranges. The typical soldier was in service for two or three years. The prison time for the typical POW could be counted in months.

And when they got sick, they recovered at a better rate in a Union POW camp than when they were under the care of confederate physicians.

 

[cash]

Where on earth did you get this? A total of 26,000 POWs served time at Camp Douglas. The known deaths are about 4500. That's 17.3%. Plus there was a large number unaccounted for (1500) which would put the death rate at 23%.

Source listed in post.

I get my figures from real historians, not from confederate heritage liars. Try it sometime.

 

[cash]

I should hope that any prisoner was more safe than a combat infantryman with bullets zinging past his head. Good grief.
Edited.

Apparently the words "non-battle deaths" eluded you.

 

[CSA Today]

You've got it all wrong Hoseman. YOUR ancestor, just like mine, & all the other Confederates who were pow's were treated with the utmost respect, & the most humane conditions possible. All these stories of inhumane treatement are mere slandering of the Union, in an attempt to defer blame for scapegoats like Wirz.

The Union was above reproach when it came to the treatment of Confederate POW's. They couldn't possibly have tried to conceal the numbers of dead, or the inhumane conditions. Honest Abe would've disapproved of such...

Anyone thinking otherwise is probably a raving bigot or worse.

 

[cash]

Back to the topic of the thread, which is Henry Wirz and Andersonville.

Andersonville was in operation for less than a year and the death rate was about 29%. It was by far the worst POW camp of the war. Let's not be under the delusion that Wirz was a scapegoat. He was in charge of the camp and was responsible for what happened there. Had Winder not died, he also would have been rightly tried, convicted, and hanged.

People may console themselves with falsehoods and fallacies about United States prisons, but the fact remains United States prisons were nowhere near as bad as Andersonville.

 

[BlueNGrey]

Back to the topic of the thread, which is Henry Wirz and Andersonville.

Andersonville was in operation for less than a year and the death rate was about 29%. It was by far the worst POW camp of the war. Let's not be under the delusion that Wirz was a scapegoat. He was in charge of the camp and was responsible for what happened there. Had Winder not died, he also would have been rightly tried, convicted, and hanged.

People may console themselves with falsehoods and fallacies about United States prisons, but the fact remains United States prisons were nowhere near as bad as Andersonville.

Define "nowhere near as bad". On a scale between 1-10, tell us where US POW camps were and where Andersonville was. Facts please.

 

[19thGeorgia]

Source listed in post.

I get my figures from real historians, not from confederate heritage liars. Try it sometime.

Your Union white-washing act gets old...

"Of the more than 26,000 Confederate detainees held at Camp Douglas during the war, more than 4,400 died, making it the deadliest of all Union prisoner-of-war camps."
American Civil War: A State-by-State Encyclopedia, Vol. I, p185

"Between 1862 and 1865, the facility held 26,000 Confederate prisoners, often ill and starving. As many as 6,000 men are said to have died at Camp Douglas..."
Encyclopedia of the Chicago Literary Renaissance, p51

"It seems that 498 men were unaccounted for. About 893 were missing in the 1862 exchange according to the Tribune's count. Adding that to the 498 lends credibility to claims that at least six thousand died at Camp Douglas."
To Die in Chicago, p326

 

[cash]

Define "nowhere near as bad". On a scale between 1-10, tell us where US POW camps were and where Andersonville was. Facts please.

Elsewhere in this thread I posted the death rates of all the United States prison camps. The only one that comes close to Andersonville is Elmira, which was around 24%. The rest of them are far from Andersonville. Andersonville was also the worst of the confederate camps. I posted the overall death rates of Union camps and confederate camps. Union camps overall death rate was around 11% while overall confederate camp death rate was around 15%. That means Andersonville, at 29%, was an outlier. That also explains why no other confederate POW camp commander was tried.

 

[cash]

Your Union white-washing act gets old...

"Of the more than 26,000 Confederate detainees held at Camp Douglas during the war, more than 4,400 died, making it the deadliest of all Union prisoner-of-war camps."
American Civil War: A State-by-State Encyclopedia, Vol. I, p185

"Between 1862 and 1865, the facility held 26,000 Confederate prisoners, often ill and starving. As many as 6,000 men are said to have died at Camp Douglas..."
Encyclopedia of the Chicago Literary Renaissance, p51

"It seems that 498 men were unaccounted for. About 893 were missing in the 1862 exchange according to the Tribune's count. Adding that to the 498 lends credibility to claims that at least six thousand died at Camp Douglas."
To Die in Chicago, p326

Paul Springer isn't a Civil War historian, so he's out of his field of expertise. The worst Union prison camp was Elmira. [James I. Robertson, Jr., "The Scourge of Elmira," in William B. Hesseltine, ed., Civil War Prisons, p. 80]

"Are said to have died" by whom? Sorry, but rumor isn't history.

Levy takes Sponable's number as accurate, but admits that careful records were kept, and those careful records were the source for the Official Reports number, which Levy rejects. I'll take the careful records and the Official Reports.

Any more deflection from Wirz and Andersonville?

 

[Hoseman]

Back to the topic of the thread, which is Henry Wirz and Andersonville.

Andersonville was in operation for less than a year and the death rate was about 29%. It was by far the worst POW camp of the war. Let's not be under the delusion that Wirz was a scapegoat. He was in charge of the camp and was responsible for what happened there. Had Winder not died, he also would have been rightly tried, convicted, and hanged.

People may console themselves with falsehoods and fallacies about United States prisons, but the fact remains United States prisons were nowhere near as bad as Andersonville.

I do not dispute that Andersonville was bad. However, your assertion that "it was by far the worst POW camp of the war" is very unlikely. The victors write the history and provide the death statistics. I would not trust these figures with a ten foot pole. There were many, many soldiers that simply disappeared or were considered "unaccounted for" that certainly also died while being held as POWs. And these men were not added to the final count. The thing that makes the union prisons, using your words "far worse" is that they had the means to provide proper food, clothing, shelter, sanitation and medical treatment but deliberately chose not to provide it. The following was taken from, of all places, Wikipedia but sums it up perfectly IMO.

"The overall mortality rates in prisons on both sides were similar, and quite high. Many Southern prisons were located in regions with high disease rates, and were routinely short of medicine, doctors, food and ice. Northerners often believed their men were being deliberately weakened and killed in Confederate prisons, and demanded that conditions in Northern prisons be equally harsh, even though shortages were not a problem in the North.[9]

About 56,000 soldiers died in prisons during the war, accounting for almost 10% of all Civil War fatalities.[10] During a period of 14 months in Camp Sumter, located near Andersonville, Georgia, 13,000 (28%) of the 45,000 Union soldiers confined there died.[11] At Camp Douglas in Chicago, Illinois, 10% of its Confederate prisoners died during one cold winter month; and Elmira Prison in New York state, with a death rate of 25%, very nearly equaled that of Andersonville.[12]"

 

[Bruce Vail]

Wirz had been in the US since 1849, had married a US citizen woman and had a child born in the US.

Yes, none of which means he could not have been deported had the U.S. authorities elected to pursue that option. If Switzerland had refused to accept him, there would have been plenty of other places that would.

 

[cash]

I do not dispute that Andersonville was bad. However, your assertion that "it was by far the worst POW camp of the war" is very unlikely.

Wrong again. It was by far the worst. Read what real historians have written.

The victors write the history and provide the death statistics.

A claim made by those with no credibility. It is poor thinking and poor historical thinking. It means you realize the facts are against you.

I would not trust these figures with a ten foot pole. There were many, many soldiers that simply disappeared or were considered "unaccounted for" that certainly also died while being held as POWs. And these men were not added to the final count. The thing that makes the union prisons, using your words "far worse" is that they had the means to provide proper food, clothing, shelter, sanitation and medical treatment but deliberately chose not to provide it. The following was taken from, of all places, Wikipedia but sums it up perfectly IMO.

"The overall mortality rates in prisons on both sides were similar, and quite high. Many Southern prisons were located in regions with high disease rates, and were routinely short of medicine, doctors, food and ice. Northerners often believed their men were being deliberately weakened and killed in Confederate prisons, and demanded that conditions in Northern prisons be equally harsh, even though shortages were not a problem in the North.[9]

About 56,000 soldiers died in prisons during the war, accounting for almost 10% of all Civil War fatalities.[10] During a period of 14 months in Camp Sumter, located near Andersonville, Georgia, 13,000 (28%) of the 45,000 Union soldiers confined there died.[11] At Camp Douglas in Chicago, Illinois, 10% of its Confederate prisoners died during one cold winter month; and Elmira Prison in New York state, with a death rate of 25%, very nearly equaled that of Andersonville.[12]"

Generally speaking, Wikipedia isn't a good source; however, in this case they are not far off. Andersonville's death rate, according to the curators there at the NPS site at Andersonville, is generally agreed on at 29%. Elmira's death rate was 24.3%, which means the Wikipedia number is fairly close.

Overall, United States prisons had about an 11% death rate, while overall the confederate camps had about a 15% death rate.

Any more deflection away from Wirz and Andersonville?

 

[cash]

Yes, none of which means he could not have been deported had the U.S. authorities elected to pursue that option. If Switzerland had refused to accept him, there would have been plenty of other places that would.

I don't know if he was naturalized, but if he was a naturalized citizen, could he have been deported?

 

[WJC]

I don't know if he was naturalized, but if he was a naturalized citizen, could he have been deported?

I don't believe anyone was deported by the U. S. government until at least the late 19th century. Perhaps @Pat Young can help us understand whether that would have been an option in the Wirz case.

 

[BlueNGrey]

Elsewhere in this thread I posted the death rates of all the United States prison camps. The only one that comes close to Andersonville is Elmira, which was around 24%. The rest of them are far from Andersonville. Andersonville was also the worst of the confederate camps. I posted the overall death rates of Union camps and confederate camps. Union camps overall death rate was around 11% while overall confederate camp death rate was around 15%. That means Andersonville, at 29%, was an outlier. That also explains why no other confederate POW camp commander was tried.

So hellmira was POW camp "lite" with a 24% death rate. 27% death rate at Andersonville is a 3% difference. Hardly an outlier.

 

[Pat Young]

I don't believe anyone was deported by the U. S. government until at least the late 19th century. Perhaps @Pat Young can help us understand whether that would have been an option in the Wirz case.

I was recently reading accounts of deportations from this period. Most were effected by the State of Massachusetts and nearly all were directed against Irish immigrants. These state deportations were horribly cruel, the person often being sent to England rather than Ireland after having developed dementia or other debilitating mental disorder after living in the US. No provision was made for their reception in England and it is believed that many of these people died soon after deportation.

These state deportations were later ruled unconstitutional.

 

[cash]

So hellmira was POW camp "lite" with a 24% death rate. 27% death rate at Andersonville is a 3% difference. Hardly an outlier.

Andersonville was an outlier among confederate camps.

Elmira was an outlier among Union camps, yet still less of a death rate than Andersonville.

Andersonville and Elmira were both outliers among all other prison camps.

 

[cash]

I was recently reading accounts of deportations from this period. Most were effected by the State of Massachusetts and nearly all were directed against Irish immigrants. These state deportations were horribly cruel, the person often being sent to England rather than Ireland after having developed dementia or other debilitating mental disorder after living in the US. No provision was made for their reception in England and it is believed that many of these people died soon after deportation.

These state deportations were later ruled unconstitutional.

Were any of these deportees naturalized US citizens?

 

[Michael_Schaffner]

Exactly. I don't believe any of the "official" numbers for dead Confederates who died in prisons for one second. I was born at night but not last night. There simply is no good reason why this happened and certainly no justification. It is shameful.

Just think how much of this debate would never have had occasion to occur if the Confederate government hadn't passed the Retaliatory Act the same day they made the CBF part of the "White Man's Flag"...

Just to clarify my earlier post for those who aren't familiar with the references:

The "Retaliatory Act" was passed by the Confederate Congress on May 1, 1863, and stated that USCT soldiers would not be treated as prisoners of war. The African American enlisted men would be re-enslaved and the white officers would be tried by military commission for "inciting servile insurrection" -- a capital offense. http://hd.housedivided.dickinson.edu/node/39620

That same day the Confederate Congress incorporated the battle flag into the design for the Second National flag, which was hailed as the "white man's flag" -- http://www.thiscruelwar.com/william-thompson-the-confederate-cause-and-the-white-mans-flag/

The two acts taken together illustrate the profound racism at the heart of the Confederacy. The refusal to treat USCT soldiers of the United States Army as prisoners of war when captured was a principal cause of the breakdown of the Exchange Cartel and the major reason for the suffering of all POWs thereafter.

Any "shame" related to the treatment of prisoners on both sides -- as well as those murdered in the field in lieu of being taken prisoner -- can be directly tied to the official policy of the rebel government.