Help with Model Identification ?!?!

[mountaineer7]

Hello all !

First post here and I really hope you all can help me further identify the model musket that I've managed to get my hands on. At first glance it presents itself as a model 1864/ 1863 type ii (whichever name you prefer), but upon further inspection I've just become more and more confused. Haha. Is it a transitional model of some sort ? And to further confuse the issue, the lock plate is marked Parker Snow and Co, 1863 and the barrel is also dated 1863 on the barrel tang. The only issue with that is the barrel and bolster are the model 1863 flat type with no clean out screw on the bolster and, as far as I've been able to research, Parker Snow and Co didn't make any model 1863s, either type I or type II. The fit and finish on the rifle is tight and fits perfectly together on all components. Nothing about the fit and finish of this rifle appears to suggest that it was pieced together, at least not any time in the last 150 years. I know that Parker Snow and Co produced just locks in addition to complete rifles. Is it possible that this is a lock from a batch that got shipped to Springfield or another manufacturer of the model 1863s and was older stock that got used ?!?! Any help or input will be greatly appreciated. I've attached pictures and if you would like more I can send them. Thank a ton !!!

 

[scooter748driver]

Welcome from the Fort Sumter and the Fredericksburg forums.

Nice looking rifle - thanks for sharing it. The experts will be along and will let you know about it.

 

[UCVRelics]

Hello all !

First post here and I really hope you all can help me further identify the model musket that I've managed to get my hands on. At first glance it presents itself as a model 1864/ 1863 type ii (whichever name you prefer), but upon further inspection I've just become more and more confused. Haha. Is it a transitional model of some sort ? And to further confuse the issue, the lock plate is marked Parker Snow and Co, 1863 and the barrel is also dated 1863 on the barrel tang. The only issue with that is the barrel and bolster are the model 1863 flat type with no clean out screw on the bolster and, as far as I've been able to research, Parker Snow and Co didn't make any model 1863s, either type I or type II. The fit and finish on the rifle is tight and fits perfectly together on all components. Nothing about the fit and finish of this rifle appears to suggest that it was pieced together, at least not any time in the last 150 years. I know that Parker Snow and Co produced just locks in addition to complete rifles. Is it possible that this is a lock from a batch that got shipped to Springfield or another manufacturer of the model 1863s and was older stock that got used ?!?! Any help or input will be greatly appreciated. I've attached pictures and if you would like more I can send them. Thank a ton !!!View attachment 485759View attachment 485760View attachment 485761View attachment 485762View attachment 485764View attachment 485767View attachment 485768View attachment 485769View attachment 485770View attachment 485771View attachment 485772View attachment 485773View attachment 485774View attachment 485775View attachment 485776View attachment 485777View attachment 485779View attachment 485781View attachment 485782View attachment 485784View attachment 485785View attachment 485786

View attachment 485756

Very Nice Parker Snow.

The Model 1863 introduced improvements over the original Model 1861 rifle, most new features were copied from the English Enfields. The 1863 improvements are referred to as Type I by collectors, and 1864 improvements asType II. This is a transitional model, featuring some Type I parts utilized in 1864 or vice versa. The parts were individually manufactured separate from assembly. So if a part fit both models, it could be used.

In 1863 after delivering a total of 5502 rifle muskets, production was taken over by Charles Parker, also from Meridian Conn. and these variants also were marked "Parker's Snow & Co". Together 15,000 were delivered, and the "1863 " date is a bit more valuable.
Both Parker and Parker Snow made a total of 15000 guns.

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome. enjoy. Your cartouche RPB stands for Robert P. Beals

 

[johan_steele]

The detail has been given but to add you have a rather nice ACW US issue rifle musket.

 

[mountaineer7]

Thanks for all of the info and compliments guys. I appreciate it. Any more info on it that you guys can keep sending my way please do ! Curious as to why I couldn't find a whole lot out there about Parker Snow and Co making 1863s. Everything I located seemed to point to them just making 1861s which is why I was so pickled with this one. Especially with that 1863 dated lock plate and barrel but with both 1863 and 1864 features

 

[rob63]

Let me start by saying that it's a very nice rifle-musket. My first one was not near as nice, and my most recent acquisition does not look as nice either, for that matter.

The reason you can't find any info about Parker Snow and Co making 1863's is that there is no such info out there. I think your rifle has been put together from parts. Whether it was done during the war, or after the war is anybody's guess.

The wood to metal fit is excellent, so it hasn't been monkeyed with a lot, but there is no doubt in my mind that it has been cleaned. The stock is way too light to be the original finish. Oil finishes darken with age and usually acquire a reddish hue to them that yours lacks. It looks to me like it was chemically stripped without any deep sanding, so that is good.

The metal also clearly shows signs of cleaning. It was all relatively nicely done, without the damage that is too often seen, although I wouldn't have lightened the stock that much personally.

That all means that it certainly has been taken apart at some point, and there is no way to know what else may have been done to it or when it was done. This is the reason some collectors greatly prefer guns that haven't been cleaned. It is not very hard to make parts match each other while cleaning or doing restoration work, so it really makes it impossible to tell if something is original or not.

It's still a very nice rifle musket, but you do not have a Model 1863 made by Parker, Snow and Co. You have what is known as a "mixed model" made up of interchangeable parts from different guns. No way of knowing when it was assembled.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

A standard reference is "The U. S. Model 1861 Springfield Rifle-Musket" by Whisker, Hartzler & Yantz, 2nd Edition, states in the section on Parker, Snow & Company that this firm made only the standard Model 1861.
There has been so much intermixing of parts over the years that this reference book contains an "Eagle Head" study which shows photos of the proof mark areas of barrels believed to be original in a specific maker - these eagle head symbols were shaped differently on barrels of different makers. The idea is that this might help identify arms that were in original state.
The eagle head on your rifle-musket is too worn to compare from the photo you posted.