Help needed with a First National Confederate Flag

[Russ Watkins]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I joined for two reasons: 1) I've been fascinated with the Civil War since I was a kid, and so I think there will be lots of amazing conversations to take part in, and 2) as a result of my interest in the Civil War, I received as a gift, 25 years ago, a first national confederate flag. I've always wanted to see if I could without a doubt establish its authenticity, and if possible, find out where exactly it came from and something about its story. About 5 years ago, I got in touch with a man named Ken Legendre. I'm sure someone on this forum is familiar with him. He was incredibly helpful and after some emails back and forth, left me with a working theory that the flag was created by a Savannah-based artist named Firmin Cerveau, possibly for a Macon, Georgia area regiment early in the war. He based this on the way the stars were painted as well as the appearance of the scroll on the white middle bar. The scroll itself says "Jackson-Freedom" on one side and "In Hoc Signo Vinces" on the other. Mr. Legendre thought the reference to Jackson may refer to the incident involving the killing of Col. Ellsworth in Alexandria at the outset of the war. (The hotel owner who shot Ellsworth was named Jackson.)

Mr. Legendre had seen the flag I now own years prior when it was in the hands of other dealers. He believed it was a military flag, but that was all he could say about it. I was content with that information for a long time, but now I'm wondering if I can find out more. Is the flag definitely military? Is the Cerveau theory correct? Is it possible to trace this flag to any particular regiment? If anyone has the time and is willing to offer me an opinion or point me in a direction where I could find more information, I'd be extremely grateful. I'll post the same pictures I sent to Mr. Legendre several years ago. Thank you all!

 

[WJC]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I joined for two reasons: 1) I've been fascinated with the Civil War since I was a kid, and so I think there will be lots of amazing conversations to take part in, and 2) as a result of my interest in the Civil War, I received as a gift, 25 years ago, a first national confederate flag. I've always wanted to see if I could without a doubt establish its authenticity, and if possible, find out where exactly it came from and something about its story. About 5 years ago, I got in touch with a man named Ken Legendre. I'm sure someone on this forum is familiar with him. He was incredibly helpful and after some emails back and forth, left me with a working theory that the flag was created by a Savannah-based artist named Firmin Cerveau, possibly for a Macon, Georgia area regiment early in the war. He based this on the way the stars were painted as well as the appearance of the scroll on the white middle bar. The scroll itself says "Jackson-Freedom" on one side and "In Hoc Signo Vinces" on the other. Mr. Legendre thought the reference to Jackson may refer to the incident involving the killing of Col. Ellsworth in Alexandria at the outset of the war. (The hotel owner who shot Ellsworth was named Jackson.)

Mr. Legendre had seen the flag I now own years prior when it was in the hands of other dealers. He believed it was a military flag, but that was all he could say about it. I was content with that information for a long time, but now I'm wondering if I can find out more. Is the flag definitely military? Is the Cerveau theory correct? Is it possible to trace this flag to any particular regiment? If anyone has the time and is willing to offer me an opinion or point me in a direction where I could find more information, I'd be extremely grateful. I'll post the same pictures I sent to Mr. Legendre several years ago. Thank you all!

Welcome! A very nice, historical artifact! Thanks for sharing! When you get your question answered, stay around and join the conversation. New perspectives are always appreciated!

 

[captaindrew]

Welcome to the forum Russ from South Florida. What a fantastic piece, hopefully someone here can find the history of it.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Hello Russ.

Welcome to CWT and thanks for sharing a very interesting flag.

I can't begin to answer your questions, but my gut feeling is that you have an early War regimental flag.

I don't think such extra embellishment would have gone into a basic CSA governmental First National .

 

[Patrick H]

Hi, Russ and welcome from Missouri. Thanks for showing us your flag. I can't tell you any more about it, but I expect some others can. Come back often!

 

[Billw12280]

Hi everyone,
View attachment 181666

I'm new to this forum and I joined for two reasons: 1) I've been fascinated with the Civil War since I was a kid, and so I think there will be lots of amazing conversations to take part in, and 2) as a result of my interest in the Civil War, I received as a gift, 25 years ago, a first national confederate flag. I've always wanted to see if I could without a doubt establish its authenticity, and if possible, find out where exactly it came from and something about its story. About 5 years ago, I got in touch with a man named Ken Legendre. I'm sure someone on this forum is familiar with him. He was incredibly helpful and after some emails back and forth, left me with a working theory that the flag was created by a Savannah-based artist named Firmin Cerveau, possibly for a Macon, Georgia area regiment early in the war. He based this on the way the stars were painted as well as the appearance of the scroll on the white middle bar. The scroll itself says "Jackson-Freedom" on one side and "In Hoc Signo Vinces" on the other. Mr. Legendre thought the reference to Jackson may refer to the incident involving the killing of Col. Ellsworth in Alexandria at the outset of the war. (The hotel owner who shot Ellsworth was named Jackson.)

Mr. Legendre had seen the flag I now own years prior when it was in the hands of other dealers. He believed it was a military flag, but that was all he could say about it. I was content with that information for a long time, but now I'm wondering if I can find out more. Is the flag definitely military? Is the Cerveau theory correct? Is it possible to trace this flag to any particular regiment? If anyone has the time and is willing to offer me an opinion or point me in a direction where I could find more information, I'd be extremely grateful. I'll post the same pictures I sent to Mr. Legendre several years ago. Thank you all!

Welcome to the forum! I don't know much about flags but that is the most authentic looking one I've seen for awhile, outside of a museum anyway. I'll be curious what the experts say. Thanks for sharing it with us!

 

[Larryh86GT]

Welcome

 

[AUG]

Welcome! Looks like the the typical flag that would be presented to a company at the outset of the war, can't confirm its authenticity though. Jackson could also be a reference to someone of local significance.

Paging @Frederick14Va, @Flag Guy.

 

[UCVRelics]

Welcome From THE Heart Of Dixie. Very Nice First National flag, Its hard to tell from the photos and glare and being in the frame as to the construction ie: width of panels of cloth, how the stars are sewn on etc. It looks as if it has 11 stars? Whats the measurements of the flag. The motto In Hoc Signo Vinces has been used for many many many years but in the US it is found on Knights Templar flags and banners. VERY NICE FLAG. I would love to see it out of the frame.

 

[AndyHall]

Beautiful flag. Welcome to CWT.

 

[Russ Watkins]

Hello Russ.

Welcome to CWT and thanks for sharing a very interesting flag.

I can't begin to answer your questions, but my gut feeling is that you have an early War regimental flag.

I don't think such extra embellishment would have gone into a basic CSA governmental First National .

That's a good point. Thank you!

 

[Russ Watkins]

Welcome From THE Heart Of Dixie. Very Nice First National flag, Its hard to tell from the photos and glare and being in the frame as to the construction ie: width of panels of cloth, how the stars are sewn on etc. It looks as if it has 11 stars? Whats the measurements of the flag. The motto In Hoc Signo Vinces has been used for many many many years but in the US it is found on Knights Templar flags and banners. VERY NICE FLAG. I would love to see it out of the frame.

It's funny you say that, because when it was first given to me, it *was* out of the frame. I absolutely loved it! I was eventually persuaded to put it into a museum-quality frame just in the interest of preserving it. I reluctantly agreed. Haha.

The flag itself is silk. There are 12 stars and they are all painted. Overall, the flag is just over four feet tall and just over six feet long. Each of the bars are about 17 inches tall. The canton is roughly square - 28 inches across the bottom and about 38 inches tall. Hope that gives you a clue to work off of. Thanks to everyone for the very nice comments so far. It really is a beautiful flag. I feel privileged to own it

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy

 

[UCVRelics]

If original its going to date early war and with 12 stars it would have be made prior to Nov 1861 when the 13 star was added. I don't remember the order of the 8-12 Southern States that succeeded.

 

[Tut11]

Wow!! Beautiful family heirloom, thanks for sharing and welcome from Arkansas!

 

[Deleted User CS]

Welcome from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. You should contact historian Greg Biggs in Tennessee, A known Confederate flag expert. David.

 

[mofederal]

Hello and welcome to the talk forum from Southeast Missouri on the banks of the muddy Mississippi River.

 

[lelliott19]

Welcome to CivilWarTalk- the best place on the internet for Civil War discussion. Happy to have you aboard @Russ Watkins

Assuming it was a captured flag and not one held by a CS soldier's family, prior to being sold to collectors? If captured, I assume there is no information about where the flag might have been captured? The article below is not the flag in question, but a similar flag.....this one of Co F 1st Georgia Vols, aka "Gate City Guard", with the same "In Hoc Signo Vinces" described. Sounds like the phrase is inscribed on the canton of this example instead of on the center white bar.

I have never seen it, but I believe this flag survives and is in the collection of the Old Guard of the Gate City Guard, Atlanta, GA. http://oldguard-atlanta.org/history/the-story

Southern Confederacy. (Atlanta, Ga.), April 01, 1861, page 2

And another one, Company A 1st South Carolina aka "Edisto Rifles" bearing the same "In Hoc Signo Vinces" inscription:

The Ocala Evening Star., July 28, 1916, Page 2.

 

[lelliott19]

Jackson could also be a reference to someone of local significance.

Or a place of local significance. There is a Jackson County in Georgia. A number of companies were recruited in that county including Companies B & G of the 16th Georgia Infantry, Co C of the 18th Georgia Infantry, and Companies G & H of the 43rd Georgia Infantry. I have accounts of the flag presentations to Co B & G of the 16th Georgia. Unfortunately, neither account describes an inscription.

Also, regarding the stars.....it looks like it was originally made with seven stars in a circle - the seven that are all consistent. And the other five stars (the ones with the painted embellishment, one in each corner of the canton and the one in the center) might have been added later, after additional states seceded.

 

[AUG]

Or a place of local significance. There is a Jackson County in Georgia. A number of companies were recruited in that county including Companies B & G of the 16th Georgia Infantry, Co C of the 18th Georgia Infantry, and Companies G & H of the 43rd Georgia Infantry. I have accounts of the flag presentations to Co B & G of the 16th Georgia. Unfortunately, neither account describes an inscription.

Yeah, was thinking it could be a bit of both. Looked up Jackson County and see that it was named for James Jackson, veteran of the Revolutionary War and Georgia politician.

Though from Augusta, there's also John K. Jackson, officer in the Georgia State Militia and later Confederate brigadier general.