Handling an artifact provenance

[Cannonman1]

We have all been in the position of either buying or examining an artifact that is claimed to have been dug or used at a particular battle or by a particular person with no proof of the stated fact other than the sellers claim or words in white out written on the object. We suspect that maybe .. just maybe the facts have been enhanced to increase value. Example would be items claimed to having been found at Gettysburg versus some obscure campsite. Item is likely been sold a number of times and legend or provenance is passed on.. What is our responsibility when we come into the possession of an item like this? In other words, do we keep the story as is or do we put a question mark after the description? Just curious to hear what others have experienced and let things fly.. Great site and love the expertise.. Thanks !! Not sure this topic really has a definitive answer but its worth talking about.

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

This is just me, but I'd be honest about it. If the item was for resale, I would state what I think my true beliefs are on it. I can also tell the buyer, "this is the story I heard, but I have my doubts."

I see no reason to lie by omission. For me, it's important to be able to sleep at night knowing I did the best I could to tell the truth about an object. For the most part, people know when they are being played (or eventually do) and it sure leaves a bad taste in their mouth. I don't want to contribute to it.

Some things you will never know and they were found near or at a place and that's all that can be said about them.

Somewhere in the weapons forum I posted an article from a trip to Leesburg last spring. I was at an antique shop and every whip stitch they had a sign on stuff "Civil War This and Civil War That!" Even when something was mid-century furniture. And the fellow told me some big story about some bullets. And wanted some outrageous price for them.

I'm not a bullet collector per se but I'm interested in them. They are all drops. I don't need someone telling me General Lee or General Grant personally handled the bullet and then dropped it. Just tell me they were found in a ditch and I'm good and in fact, am much more inclined to believe you.

 

[UCVRelics]

In 47 years of digging and collecting CW items I have heard just about every story you could imagine. It you look at all the bullets & buttons that have been claimed to Gettysburg there must have been about 10 million troops at that battle. As far as dug items go I generally dig my own and carefully log when and where I found them. As far as buying items you can't pay for the story just the artifacts. Without DIRECT proof its just a story. I have bought items and had the person write me a note as to where they got it but thats about all you can do. If someone offers you a COA RUN don't walk out the door. Just Sayin.

 

[Cannonman1]

I know.. Its like someone saying "Trust me, I wouldn't lie to you".. You know the next thing coming is probably a lie. I am not a relic hunter or big collector.. I love the history of the pieces I have and hate to see falsification. Thanks You for your dedication to recording the details of what you find. We owe that to the next generations. I always ask for any information on any relic or piece I acquire. Just the loss of one piece of data is something that will never be regained. Its very much like an oral history. Problem is that not all who acquire relics care about that history. Every generation we loose a little bit because we don't take care or a collection gets put on the auction block when someone passes away that always intended to "write it all down" and never did. If there is one message here.. it is .. WRITE IT DOWN !!

 

[zburkett]

Great question Cannonman1. I can't wait for the answers. As for me, with the items I sell I warn any potential buyer that fakes are prevalent. I wear a good CSA buckle that has all the indications of being real including the slightly red brass, right size and "museum number" in white on the back. Then I explain that they could buy a very similar buckle from Hanover Brass for about $50, stick it in a flower pot for a couple of years, paint a number on the back and have the same thing. Then if I were ever to sell it I would tell them the story that it came with it, that it was out of a small museum that went bankrupt and that I have no way of verifying it. Even if its true it could be a UCV buckle or a Bannerman and while the best reproduction sell for under $100.00 an original CSA sells for well over a $1,000.00. But, it's not for sale because I like to kid myself that the story is true and I enjoy wearing it. Cravat Emptor.

 

[Ralph Heinz]

There is an Ebay seller who has many items throughout the year labeled as to where they were found at Gettysburg -- often the Wheat Field, or Rose Farm. Some items have white painted Gettysburg Battle locations painted on them -- particularly blades. I realize some early museums there did just that but the prices these items sell for today as people bid on them makes it apparent that there are people who will pay a lot for anything connected with Gettysburg. Some of those white paint locations look like they were painted yesterday but they still sell for far more than they would without those white painted Gettysburg Battle locations. There is a real profit motive in all this.

Maybe I'll paint "Seminary Ridge Gen. Lee's Headquarters" on my electric toothbrush and see what it sells for.

 

[Cannonman1]

You have me laughing on the prospects of selling your electric toothbrush.. I say give it a go.. LOL.. Too Funny!!

 

[Cannonman1]

The seller you mention would not be named after one of our favorite Confederate Commanders would it??

 

[Badgercwcollector]

Years ago I bought at a Civil War show a small Riker box of 3 different size minnie balls that were dug in Corinth Miss. for the my school presentations. I think I spent a whopping $ 8.00 for the box otherwise I stay away from collecting items that I have little or no knowledge of. One thing on my bucket list is to go relic hunting for just one day and if I could find just 1 minnie ball it would be a great day. Any longer I might get hooked on it lol. I would be very uneasy buying any relic off E-bay or anywhere else. I do enjoy looking at what relic hunting members post on this web site. So " keep digging and posting "

 

[UCVRelics]

One thing on my bucket list is to go relic hunting for just one day and if I could find just 1 minnie ball it would be a great day.

Well if your ever in Alabama let me know and I make your bucket list item happen.

 

[mofederal]

I used to metal detect a lot when I lived in Petersburg. in those days you could actually buy items from dealers you knew well. i knew a couple of guys, who could or would sell minies by the pound. Everything I bought was cheap. The balls just didn't have much value at the time, even if you knew where they were found. I found them from time to time after a hard rain. The siege lines ran through the area where I lived. I would not buy any today unless I knew the dealer very well or I found them myself. Oh by the way one guy I knew that could sell minies by the pound could sell them for much more now. They were from the area where the johnnie's emptied their cartridge boxes out at Appomattox C.H. after the surrender. Drops yes, but very special ones.

 

[UCVRelics]

Oh those were the days. After my second trip to Vicksburg in 1968 I brought more pouches and even a pillow case.

 

[UCVRelics]

There is a real profit motive in all this.

Now back to the regular programing. My 3 favorite ones are,

I got it from the family.
YOU ARE BIDDING ON A MUSEUM FIND!!! HERE WE HAVE A RARE CIVIL WAR NORTH CAROLINA CONFEDERATE INFANTRY OFFICERS HOMESPUN BUTTERNUT FROCK COAT.... THIS COAT IS A VERY RARE FIND, MADE OUT OF HOMESPUN MATERIAL... PURCHASED AT GETTYSBURG, PA FROM A CIVIL WAR COLLECTOR... THIS WAS IN HIS COLLECTION/FAMILY FOR 70+ YEARS.... YOU WONT FIND ANOTHER COAT IN AS GOOD CONDITION AS THIS BEAUTIFUL PIECE OF HISTORY... COAT IS INTACT AND MINT!! THIS COAT SHOULD BELONG IN A MUSEUM.... A VERY RARE FIND THAT IS A GREAT INVESTMENT QUALITY ITEM!!! WOULD MAKE A GREAT CHRISTMAS GIFT FOR YOUR LOVED ONE!!!! GET IT IN TIME FOR CHRISTMAS!! I SHIP SAME DAY AS PAYMENT RECEIVED!! STARTING BID ONLY $100, S/H $25 - SHIPPED FULLY INSURED WITH SIGNATURE TRACKING!!

I was told.
Here I am offering for sale from my personal collection is this rare Civil War Confederate Infantry Bummpers Kepi or Forage Cap. This bummers cap is in great condition for its age. I had originally purchased this at an estate sale at South Carolina and I was told this was originally from South Carolina and was in their family for decades. I purchased this directly from the the family who owned this piece of history. Kepi does have motthing on it and a few rips on the inside which is acceptable for an item this old. Kepi appears to be heavily worn and used. Bummers cap like this bring thousands... I am offering this at auction for a starting price of only $99.99 with no reserve. Good Luck Bidding! God Bless!

My Grandmother said.
Don't have one for that yet.

 

[Badgercwcollector]

Well if your ever in Alabama let me know and I make your bucket list item happen.

I might just do that , Thanks

 

[Package4]

Now back to the regular programing. My 3 favorite ones are,

I got it from the family.
YOU ARE BIDDING ON A MUSEUM FIND!!! HERE WE HAVE A RARE CIVIL WAR NORTH CAROLINA CONFEDERATE INFANTRY OFFICERS HOMESPUN BUTTERNUT FROCK COAT.... THIS COAT IS A VERY RARE FIND, MADE OUT OF HOMESPUN MATERIAL... PURCHASED AT GETTYSBURG, PA FROM A CIVIL WAR COLLECTOR... THIS WAS IN HIS COLLECTION/FAMILY FOR 70+ YEARS.... YOU WONT FIND ANOTHER COAT IN AS GOOD CONDITION AS THIS BEAUTIFUL PIECE OF HISTORY... COAT IS INTACT AND MINT!! THIS COAT SHOULD BELONG IN A MUSEUM.... A VERY RARE FIND THAT IS A GREAT INVESTMENT QUALITY ITEM!!! WOULD MAKE A GREAT CHRISTMAS GIFT FOR YOUR LOVED ONE!!!! GET IT IN TIME FOR CHRISTMAS!! I SHIP SAME DAY AS PAYMENT RECEIVED!! STARTING BID ONLY $100, S/H $25 - SHIPPED FULLY INSURED WITH SIGNATURE TRACKING!!

I was told.
Here I am offering for sale from my personal collection is this rare Civil War Confederate Infantry Bummpers Kepi or Forage Cap. This bummers cap is in great condition for its age. I had originally purchased this at an estate sale at South Carolina and I was told this was originally from South Carolina and was in their family for decades. I purchased this directly from the the family who owned this piece of history. Kepi does have motthing on it and a few rips on the inside which is acceptable for an item this old. Kepi appears to be heavily worn and used. Bummers cap like this bring thousands... I am offering this at auction for a starting price of only $99.99 with no reserve. Good Luck Bidding! God Bless!

My Grandmother said.
Don't have one for that yet.

Bought at an estate sale and know nothing about it...…..

 

[zburkett]

I love the "Confederate" unit flags that look like they were made in a third grade homek class.

 

[Cannonman1]

A question within a question.. and related to the topic.. Back in 1988 I participated in the National Park Service re enactment event at Gettysburg.. While I was there I purchased a couple dug items from a little motel down by the battlefield that was selling items in their lobby that were from a local collection of items collected on the battlefield over the years. All were dirty, encrusted in rust or corrosion and uncleaned.. I assume that they are authentically from the site. I purchased a musket main spring vise and a bullet that is in some wood. Also for sale were some corroded cartridge box tins, drops and fired minies and a cartridge box plate or two as I remember. Seemed to be mostly unremarkable items at the time but a pretty honest group. I asked about the provenance at the time and was told that they were items picked over time on private land east of the park. What do you guys think?

 

[Mike Serpa]

Remember the story about the man who bought George Washington's axe that he used to cut down the cherry tree? The handle was changed a few times over the years and the head had been replaced. Other than those few things it was the exact same axe!

 

[Package4]

A question within a question.. and related to the topic.. Back in 1988 I participated in the National Park Service re enactment event at Gettysburg.. While I was there I purchased a couple dug items from a little motel down by the battlefield that was selling items in their lobby that were from a local collection of items collected on the battlefield over the years. All were dirty, encrusted in rust or corrosion and uncleaned.. I assume that they are authentically from the site. I purchased a musket main spring vise and a bullet that is in some wood. Also for sale were some corroded cartridge box tins, drops and fired minies and a cartridge box plate or two as I remember. Seemed to be mostly unremarkable items at the time but a pretty honest group. I asked about the provenance at the time and was told that they were items picked over time on private land east of the park. What do you guys think?

I think you are good, those items are so innocuous & plentiful, especially 30 years ago, that they are fairly sure to be from Gettysburg. Now unscrupulous dealers will buy minis from all over and drop them on the ground and say they were picked up in Gettysburg.......

 

[UCVRelics]

say they were picked up in Gettysburg.......

Some don't even do that.