Gun Research

[20th_NYArtillery]

So I've been designated both Quartermaster and Historian of my unit. We want to look into where our gun(s) were possibly used. Our first on is a Heavy 12pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer. On the breach is stamped USNY WASHINGTON 759 Lbs 69 PRE No. 92. That gun is stamped 1862 on top of the barrel towards the middle section where the chassis is. Our other gun is a Light 12pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer stamped USNY WASHINGTON 424 Lbs 24 PRE No 179. This on is stamped 1872. I just would like to know where to search in order to find the official records and documentation on them. We found them about 20 years ago in a cemetery in the Bronx, where our school is, and took these 2 while the third went to a private collector, that none of us know their name. I've searched our own records here at school in the library but they have no records of them either.

 

[Jimklag]

So I've been designated both Quartermaster and Historian of my unit. We want to look into where our gun(s) were possibly used. Our first on is a Heavy 12pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer. On the breach is stamped USNY WASHINGTON 759 Lbs 69 PRE No. 92. That gun is stamped 1862 on top of the barrel towards the middle section where the chassis is. Our other gun is a Light 12pdr Dahlgren Boat Howitzer stamped USNY WASHINGTON 424 Lbs 24 PRE No 179. This on is stamped 1872. I just would like to know where to search in order to find the official records and documentation on them. We found them about 20 years ago in a cemetery in the Bronx, where our school is, and took these 2 while the third went to a private collector, that none of us know their name. I've searched our own records here at school in the library but they have no records of them either.

Good morning, @20th_NYArtillery . Welcome to the forums.

 

[Frederick14Va]

Unfortunately there is no single source repository of records on artillery guns and their respective issues and use that has survived. Related Ordnance returns and gun records that would give better light to the service history of a given gun were reportedly discarded by the War Dept post war. Hence that chunk of history for majority is forever lost.

Most guns after the war were gathered up in storage. Many were destroyed and sold as scrap. Lots of those remaining were given away to Parks, localities and cemeteries to be used as memorial display pieces. Sometimes they would request something of a particular type or caliber, regardless of maker or number, otherwise got what was available at random from the piles till the stocks ran out.

Most times the best that can he obtained is fragmented via secondary records from Foundry's, Arsenals, sometimes repair, transfer, and issue invoices that may mention a particular gun by its number. Occasionally might get lucky to find such references, and even then it can only tell where a certain gun was located on that date and place. These records are scattered about, commonly found buried in CMSR file of the person that might have signed it, or buried in the mounds of unsorted misc archived records. Naval records tend to be a bit better since many of the guns continued to be used for a period of time post war. I would focus there first, in the Naval archives and that of the Washington Naval Yard. But generally following a particular gun and its entire service history can be quite difficult for most. Good luck

 

[byron ed]

Unofficially, if still available, is The National Register of Surviving Civil War Artillery -- maintained, at least in 2013, by Jim Bender* Jim was totally helpful and knowledgeable for us in identifying a pair of monument Parrots, 30 pdrs.




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*Originally cataloged by Wayne Stark, now deceased. My 2013 Jim Bender contact information was: 26633 Lawrenceville Rd., Sunman, IN 47041, or email at [email protected]

 

[byron ed]

...We found them about 20 years ago in a cemetery in the Bronx, where our school is, and took these 2 while the third went to a private collector..

!!!!!!... just noticed this! Around the turn of the century congressmen requested cannon for their local town court squares, schools, monuments and graveyards in their districts. Those were given with the understanding of perpetuity -- that when and if those entities no longer existed as court squares, monuments or graveyards -- the assets would in fact default as U.S. property unless there is documentation indicating otherwise.

Without provenance (written document indicating approval of the school district, cemetery association or town government) showing that your unit was specifically designated stewardship of those original guns -- you likely are leaving yourself wide open to any citizen challenge of your possession of the guns. I would at least consult a lawyer on this to reduce the risk. Any lawyers in your unit?

Reclaiming of guns can happen to a reenactment unit (our unit was lurked about it for a time -- it turns out that you can't actually own the guns, only have legal possession of them).

If I were you, I would asap research and find a written record showing that stewardship of the guns was officially passed to your unit. Barring that; have a document made up anew, with the help of the legacy organization's lawyer. If the guns were school property, draft an agreement with the school board such that they retain legal possession of the guns but that they officially delegate stewardship of the guns to your unit as a non-profit educational institution. (We had such an arrangement for our originals). There is a risk that, knowing the market value of the guns, the board would decide in detriment to your unit, but it's the right thing to do. Some units take the tack of "don't ask, don't tell" to avoid the whole issue and trust that no citizen will ever challenge ownership of their guns.

On a whole other scale is your "private collector," who is especially in jeopardy, having absconded with a local public asset that is defaulted to U.S. Gov't property. That gun has a readily assessed and known high-dollar open market value. For this collector to just take it for their own private use or (worse yet) sale is a reportable offense. Do you know the guy? If a friend, you might suggest he cover his a-- on this.

 

[Albert Sailhorst]

There are no records of which guns were sent to which units. I wish there were.
My unit fires an original 3 inch Ordnance gun made by Phoenix Iron Works....we have no clue which unit had it or where it may have been used.....

 

[Albert Sailhorst]

!!!!!!... just noticed this! Around the turn of the century congressmen requested cannon for their local town court squares, schools, monuments and graveyards in their districts. Those were given with the understanding of perpetuity -- that when and if those entities no longer existed as court squares, monuments or graveyards -- the assets would in fact default as U.S. property unless there is documentation indicating otherwise.

Without provenance (written document indicating approval of the school district, cemetery association or town government) showing that your unit was specifically designated stewardship of those original guns -- you likely are leaving yourself wide open to any citizen challenge of your possession of the guns. I would at least consult a lawyer on this to reduce the risk. Any lawyers in your unit?

Reclaiming of guns can happen to a reenactment unit (our unit was lurked about it for a time -- it turns out that you can't actually own the guns, only have legal possession of them).

If I were you, I would asap research and find a written record showing that stewardship of the guns was officially passed to your unit. Barring that; have a document made up anew, with the help of the legacy organization's lawyer. If the guns were school property, draft an agreement with the school board such that they retain legal possession of the guns but that they officially delegate stewardship of the guns to your unit as a non-profit educational institution. (We had such an arrangement for our originals). There is a risk that, knowing the market value of the guns, the board would decide in detriment to your unit, but it's the right thing to do. Some units take the tack of "don't ask, don't tell" to avoid the whole issue and trust that no citizen will ever challenge ownership of their guns.

On a whole other scale is your "private collector," who is especially in jeopardy, having absconded with a local public asset that is defaulted to U.S. Gov't property. That gun has a readily assessed and known high-dollar open market value. For this collector to just take it for their own private use or (worse yet) sale is a reportable offense. Do you know the guy? If a friend, you might suggest he cover his a-- on this.

You can own a gun if the government sold it to you as "scrap". Ours was privately purchased from the Rock Island Arsenal.
You did, however, state that documentation would need to be provided (I am just agreeing with you!)

 

[byron ed]

You can own a gun if the government sold it to you as "scrap". Ours was privately purchased from the Rock Island Arsenal.

Is that what you were told? Do you really trust that the government, via Rock Island Arsenal, sold guns designated as scrap to a private entity? Were these guns listed for sale by the Rock Island arsenal? Why aren't more people aware of such a list?

Common sense should tell you that a period gun with markings was even then worth much more than scrap on the collector market, not to mention their value to a community or VFW chapter that might yet request one.

Forgive me, but this sounds like a cover story for a gun perhaps taken at midnight from some cemetery. This is really a grey area. I'd demand more from those folks who told you how the guns were acquired. They might merely be repeating what they heard back when. There might never have been any paper on the deal. It might make you party to a grey market deal. But it's your call.

 

[Albert Sailhorst]

Is that what you were told? Do you really trust that the government, via Rock Island Arsenal, sold guns designated as scrap to a private entity? Were these guns listed for sale by the Rock Island arsenal? Why aren't more people aware of such a list?

Common sense should tell you that a period gun with markings was even then worth much more than scrap on the collector market, not to mention their value to a community or VFW chapter that might yet request one.

Forgive me, but this sounds like a cover story for a gun perhaps taken at midnight from some cemetery. This is really a grey area. I'd demand more from those folks who told you how the guns were acquired. They might merely be repeating what they heard back when. There might never have been any paper on the deal. It might make you party to a grey market deal. But it's your call.

The gun was purchases in the 1960's....Demand all ya want....I don't know why you're so hostile towards me, especially since you originally said "....default as U.S. property unless there is documentation indicating otherwise."

 

[byron ed]

The gun was purchases in the 1960's....Demand all ya want...

it's 20th NY Artillery that is the one that has some explaining to do, IMHO. He boldly proclaimed their guns came from a cemetery. I can' see that you've done anything out of line. It could be that U.S. Arsenals sold vintage tubes as scrap to private parties in the 1960s, who am I to say otherwise?

I'm just suggesting (as a favor to 20th NY and you) that some concerned citizen -- some gadfly -- could challenge your unit's ownership of your guns. All it takes is a note to the right U.S. agency and you're in the system.*

But not to blow this out of proportion. In reenacting there's a lot of "winks and a nods" about where a unit's original guns came from. You probably can just sit on it and nothing will ever happen. Comments anyone else?



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* Why would anybody do that? Because original guns are worth a lot of money. Someone just might be able to gin-up paper that indicates it was never sold out of U.S. inventory, or that in any event their community organization is the proper steward of the gun now. Some old police ledger or news clip could be retrieved showing when that very type of gun went missing from a cemetery.

 

[Albert Sailhorst]

I'll agree with you there!!....Prime Example: Occasionally, in the Artilleryman magazine, you will find instances of cases where guns, stolen years ago, turn up somewhere and the current owner never knew the gun was originally stolen.

 

[TomP]

Unfortunately there is no single source repository of records on artillery guns and their respective issues and use that has survived. Related Ordnance returns and gun records that would give better light to the service history of a given gun were reportedly discarded by the War Dept post war. Hence that chunk of history for majority is forever lost.

The loss of these records makes it almost impossible to match a surviving tube to a particular unit. Almost.

Shiloh NMP has a collection of 226 cannon and of those we know the history of only 4 of them. The 3.8" James type rifle in the Corinth visitor center has a fascinating history. It was cast at the Ames Manufacturing Company in Chicoppee, Mass. in 1861. It was used by an unidentified Union artillery battery at Shiloh (we can narrow it down to two batteries) where it was captured by the Confederates and brought to Corinth. It was given to Hoxton's (Tobin's) Tennessee Light Artillery and saw action at Farmington during the Siege of Corinth. When the Confederates abandoned the city they, of course, took it with them. In October, 1862 a small Confederate army under Earl Van Dorn returned to retake the crossroads city. In the pre-dawn hours of October 4, the second day of the battle, twelve cannon were placed on a small ridge 300 yards from Battery Robinett and began to bomard the defenders. The Union responded and drove the Confederates from their position but the rifle could not be drawn off and was left behind. Four men from Company C, 1st US Infantry ran across the exposed ground and hauled it into the Union lines, all while being shot at by Confederate infantry. After the battle one of the four men engraved these words on the top of the reinforce, "Captured Oct 4 1862 Corinth Miss by 1 US Inf". It was this engraving that led the way to uncovering the history of the piece.

This 3" Ordnance Rifle near the Bloody Pond gave up it secret just this past summer. The registry number (339) on the muzzle matches a gun included on an inventory of captured cannon being delivered to Harper's Ferry in October, 1864. With this information and the assistance of one of the Rangers at Cedar Creek, we learned it was taken from the Union at Ream's Station on August 25, and was given to Capt. James W. Thompson's Company Virginia Horse Artillery. It was recaptured on October 9, 1864 at Columbia Furnace, VA during the rout at Tom's Brook, also known as the Woodstock Races. This piece was once owned by King's Mountain National Military Park where it was used as a fence post. You can see the remains of the concrete in the barrel.

 

[JOHN42768]

The loss of these records makes it almost impossible to match a surviving tube to a particular unit. Almost.

Shiloh NMP has a collection of 226 cannon and of those we know the history of only 4 of them. The 3.8" James type rifle in the Corinth visitor center has a fascinating history. It was cast at the Ames Manufacturing Company in Chicoppee, Mass. in 1861. It was used by an unidentified Union artillery battery at Shiloh (we can narrow it down to two batteries) where it was captured by the Confederates and brought to Corinth. It was given to Hoxton's (Tobin's) Tennessee Light Artillery and saw action at Farmington during the Siege of Corinth. When the Confederates abandoned the city they, of course, took it with them. In October, 1862 a small Confederate army under Earl Van Dorn returned to retake the crossroads city. In the pre-dawn hours of October 4, the second day of the battle, twelve cannon were placed on a small ridge 300 yards from Battery Robinett and began to bomard the defenders. The Union responded and drove the Confederates from their position but the rifle could not be drawn off and was left behind. Four men from Company C, 1st US Infantry ran across the exposed ground and hauled it into the Union lines, all while being shot at by Confederate infantry. After the battle one of the four men engraved these words on the top of the reinforce, "Captured Oct 4 1862 Corinth Miss by 1 US Inf". It was this engraving that led the way to uncovering the history of the piece.
View attachment 172188

This 3" Ordnance Rifle near the Bloody Pond gave up it secret just this past summer. The registry number (339) on the muzzle matches a gun included on an inventory of captured cannon being delivered to Harper's Ferry in October, 1864. With this information and the assistance of one of the Rangers at Cedar Creek, we learned it was taken from the Union at Ream's Station on August 25, and was given to Capt. James W. Thompson's Company Virginia Horse Artillery. It was recaptured on October 9, 1864 at Columbia Furnace, VA during the rout at Tom's Brook, also known as the Woodstock Races. This piece was once owned by King's Mountain National Military Park where it was used as a fence post. You can see the remains of the concrete in the barrel.
View attachment 172189

View attachment 172190

Great looking pieces.

 

[Frederick14Va]

The loss of these records makes it almost impossible to match a surviving tube to a particular unit. Almost.

Shiloh NMP has a collection of 226 cannon and of those we know the history of only 4 of them. The 3.8" James type rifle in the Corinth visitor center has a fascinating history. It was cast at the Ames Manufacturing Company in Chicoppee, Mass. in 1861. It was used by an unidentified Union artillery battery at Shiloh (we can narrow it down to two batteries) where it was captured by the Confederates and brought to Corinth. It was given to Hoxton's (Tobin's) Tennessee Light Artillery and saw action at Farmington during the Siege of Corinth. When the Confederates abandoned the city they, of course, took it with them. In October, 1862 a small Confederate army under Earl Van Dorn returned to retake the crossroads city. In the pre-dawn hours of October 4, the second day of the battle, twelve cannon were placed on a small ridge 300 yards from Battery Robinett and began to bomard the defenders. The Union responded and drove the Confederates from their position but the rifle could not be drawn off and was left behind. Four men from Company C, 1st US Infantry ran across the exposed ground and hauled it into the Union lines, all while being shot at by Confederate infantry. After the battle one of the four men engraved these words on the top of the reinforce, "Captured Oct 4 1862 Corinth Miss by 1 US Inf". It was this engraving that led the way to uncovering the history of the piece.
View attachment 172188

This 3" Ordnance Rifle near the Bloody Pond gave up it secret just this past summer. The registry number (339) on the muzzle matches a gun included on an inventory of captured cannon being delivered to Harper's Ferry in October, 1864. With this information and the assistance of one of the Rangers at Cedar Creek, we learned it was taken from the Union at Ream's Station on August 25, and was given to Capt. James W. Thompson's Company Virginia Horse Artillery. It was recaptured on October 9, 1864 at Columbia Furnace, VA during the rout at Tom's Brook, also known as the Woodstock Races. This piece was once owned by King's Mountain National Military Park where it was used as a fence post. You can see the remains of the concrete in the barrel.
View attachment 172189

View attachment 172190

Great post, every once in awhile sufficient data can be found to put pieces together on a given gun. Its great when it can.

Out of the mass collection of artillery pieces in possession at Petersburg NPS, only one can be verified to have been present and in use during the Petersburg Campaign. This is a 12lb Napoleon captured by the Confederates from a Union Battery also at Reams Station. It sits on display on a carriage inside the visitors center.

 

[TomP]

Great post

Thank you, very much.
There are two other cannon in the Shiloh with known histories.

A 12 pounder Bronze Field Howitzer, model 1841, cast at William D. Marshall & Co. Western Foundry, in St. Louis, Mo. in 1861. A plaque mounted on the reinforce reads "Battery A Chicago Light Artillery/This Gun Held This Spot/April 6 1862/Loss in Battle of Shiloh/4 Men Killed 26 Men Wounded/48 Horses Lost But No Gun. Inscribed on top of breech "Right Piece Co A C.L.A [Chicago Light Artillery]. 1st Illinois Donelson – Shiloh - Cold Water – Vicksburg – Ark. Post – Champion Hill – Bridgeport – Vicksburg".
This piece used to stand in the small field on the east side of the Hambug-Savannah Road, across from the Peach Orchard. This is what the "This Gun Held This Spot" means. It was moved inside of the Shiloh visitor center not long after the 3.8" rifle from Post #12 was moved to Corinth. This gun was unique as stood on the field in the very place it saw its heaviest fighting at Shiloh.

The other cannon is a 6 pounder Bronze Gun, cast at the Tredegar Foundry in Richmond, VA. The cannon was cast from the bell of the Chowan County Courthouse and was part of a four-gun battery known as the Edenton Bell Battery. This gun was named "Edenton." There are the initials E.B. stamped on the top of the muzzle face.

Assigned to Company B, 3rd Battalion, North Carolina Light Artillery. This piece was in action with the Army of Northern Virginia through the Battle of Fredericksburg and then transferred to the Dept. of North Carolina. The gun was surrendered with Johnston's army at Bentonville. The other guns of the battery were "St. Paul" "Fannie Roulac" and the "Columbia."


The gun was loaned to the city of Edenton in October, 2006 and remained there for a year. In the first image it is the gun nearest to the water, and the other is the "St. Paul." The city had an exact replica made and the replica stood at Shiloh while the original was away. A year later the guns were swapped out and the original "Edenton" returned to Shiloh. The second photo shows the replica at "Ruggles' Line," second gun in the line.

 

[Don Dixon]

TomP,

I can add one more gun to your list of artillery at Shiloh matched to a specific unit.

Battery D, 1st Illinois Light Artillery, had its origins in 1855 as the Plainfield Light Artillery in the Illinois militia system with one 6-pounder bronze, smoothbore gun. With Lincoln's call at the beginning of the Civil War, the battery was mobilized as companies K and I, 10th Illinois infantry, a 90-day unit; taking the 6-pounder with them. After the 10th was demobilized, Captain Edward McAllister organized another battery from Illinois and Indiana men, which was accepted into service for three-years as Battery D ("McAllister's Battery"). Battery D was equipped with four 24-pounder howitzers, the heaviest field artillery in Federal Army service. The unit fought at Fort Donaldson (there is a drawing entitled "McAllister's Battery in Action" in Battles and Leaders), and Shiloh. After Shiloh, McAllister, who was suffering from chronic dysentery, resigned and returned to Plainfield.

After the war, McAllister was involved in the GAR and the Federal veterans' movement, and was a proponent of the creation of the national military park at Shiloh. McAllister attended the park's opening/dedication ceremonies, and went to visit the marker and two guns marking Battery D's first position on the morning of 6 April 1862. To his surprise, he discovered that one of the two 24-pounder howitzers at the marker was really one of Battery D's guns. He had the serial numbers of the tubes memorized. If you look at the marker when facing the muzzles of the tubes, it's the gun on the right (unless the Park Service has been playing musical chairs with the tubes).

In 1963 I was living in Plainfield, and wrote a high school history term paper on Battery D. McAllister's granddaughter was still alive, and she provided me access to his Civil War correspondence, and his post-war papers. The identification of the gun as having been assigned to Battery D at Shiloh came from those papers.

Regards,
Don Dixon

 

[TomP]

I can add one more gun to your list of artillery at Shiloh matched to a specific unit.

This is very interesting. Do you have any copies of the papers that document his identification of the cannon?

I'm curious when he came to the park and identified the piece. The park was established on December 27, 1894 but there never was an opening/dedication ceremony. There were any number of reunions both before and after the park was established and he may have been referring to one of the later reunions.
More than likely he was speaking of the dedication of the Illinois monuments in 1904. When the artillery pieces were mounted on iron carriages (completed in 1903) the howitzers at the later site of Battery D's monument were a 12 lb. howitzer on the left and a 24 lb howitzer on the right. At a later date the 12 pounder was replaced by a matching 24 lb howitzer. The gun on the right has the stamps WM/No. 2 on the muzzle face. WM are the initials of the ordnance officer who accepted the piece for the government, William Myandier. No.2 is the registry number. This piece is a model 1841 cast at the Cyrus Alger & Co. in Boston, Mass., in 1841.
There is an identical Model 1841 24 lb bronze field howitzer which also has WM/No.2 on the muzzle. This piece was also cast in 1841 at the N.P. Ames Foundry in Springfield, Mass. This gun is on display at Vicksburg NMP.

 

[Larryh86GT]

Most times the best that can he obtained is fragmented via secondary records from Foundry's, Arsenals, sometimes repair, transfer, and issue invoices that may mention a particular gun by its number. Good luck

Is there any compilation of the foundry's of the CW, where they were located, what or how much they produced? It would
be interesting.

 

[Frederick14Va]

There are a host of different publications on the subject, reflecting a particular foundry or regional manufacturing. Some are fairly complete, others quite fragmented, depending on when and where the facility was in operation. Many of us have spent decades researching them, and still have lots of missing puzzle pieces.

 

[Larryh86GT]

There are a host of different publications on the subject, reflecting a particular foundry or regional manufacturing.

Could you list some of the publications please. It would point me in the right direction. I did a search on
the forum and do not see much but perhaps I am not doing the search correctly.