Guidon flags

[David Ireland]

My ancestor was in the V Corps, 2nd Division. Why is this flag called a guidon flag, and what's the purpose of these flags?

 

[David Ireland]

Was the 56th Pennsylvania present with Chamberlain at the assault on Petersburg when Chamberlain sustained the terrible genital wound?

 

[Sheltowee]

View attachment 493534

My ancestor was in the V Corps, 2nd Division. Why is this flag called a guidon flag, and what's the purpose of these flags?

Guidon (United States) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rpkennedy]

Was the 56th Pennsylvania present with Chamberlain at the assault on Petersburg when Chamberlain sustained the terrible genital wound?

They were in the brigade to Chamberlain's left.

Ryan

 

[David Ireland]

They were in the brigade to Chamberlain's left.

Ryan

So would he have marched past a wounded Chamberlain? He was drafted into this second regiment in the fall of 1864.

 

[Borderruffian]

The Guideon leads ,signnels, eligens, signaled facing movements etc of smaller units on the CV move. Administratively and tactically

 

[David Ireland]

I'm so perplexed about this Wilderness mystery. According to the author of this biographical sketch, he would have mustered out of the 50th New York Engineers in November 1863. The draft notices for the Wyoming County Republican show that he was drafted into the 56th Pennsylvania Infantry in September or October of 1864. Wilderness was in May 1864, during the gap between these two regiments. How would he have been in Wilderness if he wasn't in either of those units when that battle happened? Why did he end up getting drafted into a PA regiment after he had already served in a NY regiment? Would they have done that if he had deserted the prior regiment? He did say "I invented running, but back then they called it desertion." I had always assumed that he was joking, but now I'm wondering if there was something to that story given that he appears to have been in Wilderness in some unmentioned unit. What do you guys think?

 

[David Ireland]

My dad said that Joseph claimed to have been in a Veterans Volunteer unit too, if that helps solve the mystery.

 

[David Ireland]

If it helps, we think his brother was named William Winters, in the 143rd Pennsylvania, which fought at Railroad Cut.

Post in thread 'William Winters'
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/william-winters.195026/post-2542308

 

[David Ireland]

If it helps, we think his brother was named William Winters, in the 143rd Pennsylvania, which fought at Railroad Cut.

Post in thread 'William Winters'
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/william-winters.195026/post-2542308

Is anyone able to determine whether this guy is actually Joseph's brother?

 

[David Ireland]

Two more mysteries:

On this card, Joseph is listed as being in the 15th. But it didn't say whether that's the 15th NY or 15th PA. Any ideas? It also says he served in 1867—what might this regiment have been doing in 1867? And why would he not mention this regiment in the biographical sketch above? He says he was in the 50th NY Engineers and 56th PA Infantry, but not this 15th. Could this regiment be connected to the mystery about his claim to have been at Wilderness despite the gap in his self-reported service?



In addition, someone on this site said that he had a father named Robert, but in the biographical sketch, it says that his father was named John.

 

[David Ireland]

Two more mysteries:

View attachment 493644

On this card, Joseph is listed as being in the 15th. But it didn't say whether that's the 15th NY or 15th PA. Any ideas? It also says he served in 1867—what might this regiment have been doing in 1867? And why would he not mention this regiment in the biographical sketch above? He says he was in the 50th NY Engineers and 56th PA Infantry, but not this 15th. Could this regiment be connected to the mystery about his claim to have been at Wilderness despite the gap in his self-reported service?



In addition, someone on this site said that he had a father named Robert, but in the biographical sketch, it says that his father was named John.

View attachment 493645

Might this regiment have been one of the units sent South after the 1867 passage of the Reconstruction Act?

 

[David Ireland]

Is anyone able to tell me what information I could learn from the applications for veterans and widow's pensions? Where do you find this information?

 

[David Ireland]

Another thought about the Wilderness mystery above: was it likely that he may have already been enlisted and that the fall of 1864 draft notice was issued by bureaucratic incompetence? Perhaps he was in a unit already, and that explains why he said he was in the Wilderness.

I recognize that a possibility is that he simply lied. But given that he was in lots of other battles, he could have just mentioned them if he was looking for admiration. He wouldn't have needed to make up a lie about being in a battle he wasn't in.

Can we find the enlistment papers for the 50th NY Engineers and 56th PA Infantry?

What's the significance of the fact that the 56th's colonel writes at Petersburg that it was a "veteran's volunteer" unit? Is that the same thing as the Invalid Corps?

I am always amazed by the historical research skills of members here, and would be very grateful for help solving the mysteries about the Wilderness, about whether his father was John or Robert, about whether William Winters was his brother, and about why he is shown as being in a 3 month enlistment in 1867 in the 15th (which state?). If he was involved in Reconstruction, I'd love to know that too.

 

[lupaglupa]

Wow - lots of information and questions!

My first reaction is to ask if you are certain that these records all pertain to the same man. Winters/Winter is not an especially uncommon name (which I can attest from my own family research).

 

[David Ireland]

Wow - lots of information and questions!

My first reaction is to ask if you are certain that these records all pertain to the same man. Winters/Winter is not an especially uncommon name (which I can attest from my own family research).

I'm not sure, but I know that he is buried in the Dalton Shoemaker Cemetery and that the 1897 biographical sketch is about him.

 

[Rhea Cole]

View attachment 493534

My ancestor was in the V Corps, 2nd Division. Why is this flag called a guidon flag, and what's the purpose of these flags?

What are the dimensions of this pennant? It can't be properly identified without knowing how big it is.

Measure the hoist [height where it attaches to the pole] & the fly [distance from the center of the hoist to the tip.]

The function of the pennant will be indicated by its size.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Your flag is not a guidon. There was a standardized system of command flags that indicated corps number, commander, division & brigade commanders.

You will note that there is no pennant with a white border.

It also does not resemble the Veteran Volunteer banners.

Without having the dimensions of the pennant at the head of this thread I can only speculate.

It could be a marker flag. Sergeants flew small flags from a fixed bayonet. It was used to indicate dressing to the center, right or left.

Often marker flags were makeshift. Early & late war is when depot made marker flags were most commonly issued. Because of their workaday purpose, marker flags are quite rare.

I would not be surprised if this pennant is a veteran's reunion item. It fits in with a GAR type of commemorative design.

I have never seen this exact pennant before, which is not entirely surprising. The Veteran reunion / GAR flag world is long on surprises.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Your flag is not a guidon. There was a standardized system of command flags that indicated corps number, commander, division & brigade commanders.

View attachment 493999

View attachment 494000

You will note that there is no pennant with a white border.

View attachment 494007
It also does not resemble the Veteran Volunteer banners.

Without having the dimensions of the pennant at the head of this thread I can only speculate.

It could be a marker flag. Sergeants flew small flags from a fixed bayonet. It was used to indicate dressing to the center, right or left.

Often marker flags were makeshift. Early & late war is when depot made marker flags were most commonly issued. Because of their workaday purpose, marker flags are quite rare.

I would not be surprised if this pennant is a veteran's reunion item. It fits in with a GAR type of commemorative design.

I have never seen this exact pennant before, which is not entirely surprising. The Veteran reunion / GAR flag world is long on surprises.

Hope this helps.

Errata: I misspoke. The pennant is a 2nd brigade, 3rd division, 5th Army Corps command flag. If it is 3' on a side it is the dimension of a command pennant.

Sorry about the screw up, I was answering two threads at once.