Grant's Hammer

[The Iron Duke]

How did Lee not waste away his resources?

He threw away 10,000 men by fighting an unnecessary battle at Antietam. He made the same mistakes at Gettysburg that Bragg made at Stones River resulting in his men getting butchered. Malvern Hill was an uncoordinated bloody mess.

Because the Confederacy had inferior resources Lee needed to be more economical with his army than Grant. But Lee wasn't. He was just as willing to throw away his men's lives as the next guy.

 

[K Hale]

K Hale, yes he did use his resources. I drive my car, I just don't drive it like I'm in a demolition derby

That's because you aren't in one. But what if you were? Would you not then drive it like you were?

How do you win a demolition derby without driving like you're in one? That's what I want to know. Because, when there's a war on, man, you got to act like it. Not shrink back and try to preserve everyone. That leads to extended wars and failed presidential campaigns.

 

[BillO]

Back to Dred's post #25: He did stand his ground at Cold Harbour. He also refused a flag of truce for several days while the piles of wounded yankees slowly died from exposure, heat and their wounds. the percentage of wounded to dead in the assault was very low. This is callous and wasteful. Probably wasn't very good for morale either. I give the federal rank and file a great deal of respect for facing those lines over and over. On the Petersburg campaign I am familiar with the initial assaults. They have a very good National park ther and if your ever in Virginia you should check it out.

 

[BillO]

To the Iron Duke: Lee made a bunch of mistakes, Malvern Hill was a bloody mess in fact the whole 7 days around Richmond has almost a keystone cops qaulity to it on both sides. Antietam wasn't a good position for Lee to be in and it wasn't where he had planned to be but he needed Jackson to finish up at Harpers Ferry so he would have something to show for it. Also he knew who he was facing. Lee was an engineer by training but he had the soul of a riverboat gambler.

 

[BillO]

K Hale: Eisenhower won his war too but didn't just line them up and keep sending them to the same place with the same results over and over. I'm just saying I think Grant by this stage of the war could have gained the same outcome without so many bloody noses. Once Lee was pinned down at Petersburg the war was a done deal.

 

[The Iron Duke]

Eisenhower won his war too but didn't just line them up and keep sending them to the same place with the same results over and over.

He certainly did at the Hurtgen Forest.

Grant was constantly moving by the left flank to gain an advantage. Not much different from what Lee did during the Seven Days.

 

[The Iron Duke]

The Wilderness and Spotsylvania were not simple victories for Lee anyway. If Longstreet had not arrived in the nick of time Lee's army would probably have been finished in the Wilderness. The attacks against Laurel Hill were bloody and pointless but Upton's and Hancock's attacks against the Mule Shoe very nearly ruptured Lee's position in half.

The situation in both battles got so desperate Lee himself was ready to lead a charge. Surely that shows Grant's attacks had some punch behind it?

 

[BillO]

Well you got me there. The allies were trying to sweep south of a line of fortified villiages and tank traps and were expecting light resistance what they found was the start of the german build up to the battle of the bulge!Many historians consider the Hurtgen forest as a defeat for the allies.

 

[ole]

He [Grant] also refused a flag of truce for several days while the piles of wounded yankees slowly died from exposure, heat and their wounds.

Snag!
As I understand it, Grant asked permission a number of times to retrieve the wounded. Lee would grant permission only if a flag of truce were flown. The white flag, at that time, was flown only by the loser. Grant wouldn't do that.

So it would appear that Grant wasn't the only villain in that episode. Lee could have accommodated the requests, but he had to have the white flag that he knew he wasn't going to get.

Just a thought.

Ole

 

[BillO]

That I'll look up and maybe learn something. I'm not sure what the common procedure was and I'll look that up too. Still the wounded lying on the ground were all union men.

 

[ole]

There were scattered Confederates among them.

 

[BillO]

I kinda doubt there were any between the lines.

 

[ole]

Try Furguson. There were skirmishers out there.

 

[BillO]

The trenches were hot, dusty, and miserable, but conditions were worse between the lines, where thousands of wounded Federal soldiers suffered horribly without food, water, or medical assistance. Grant was reluctant to ask for a formal truce that would allow him to recover his wounded because that would be a signal he had lost the battle. He and Lee traded notes across the lines from June 5 to June 7 without coming to an agreement, and when Grant formally requested a two-hour cessation of hostilities, it was too late for most of the unfortunate wounded, who were now bloated corpses. Grant was widely criticized in the Northern press for this lapse of judgment.

I pulled this off of Wiki, I have some campaign books I'm going to go look up how these truces had been arranged before.

 

[ole]

It looks like a lapse of judgement from here, but Lee did play a part in the delay.

Ole

 

[K Hale]

K Hale: Eisenhower won his war too but didn't just line them up and keep sending them to the same place with the same results over and over.

I don't know about Eisenhower so I can't comment on whether the comparison is meaningful or not.

I'm just saying I think Grant by this stage of the war could have gained the same outcome without so many bloody noses.

How?

Once Lee was pinned down at Petersburg the war was a done deal.

Too bad Lee didn't realize this the moment he was pinned down, and surrender.

 

[K Hale]

That I'll look up and maybe learn something. I'm not sure what the common procedure was and I'll look that up too. Still the wounded lying on the ground were all union men.

The issue of the wounded at Cold Harbor was covered in this thread: http://civilwartalk.com/forums/ballot-box/32725-grant-vs-lee-22.html

That page is where the discussion started.

 

[brass napoleon]

Ernerst B. Furgurson wrote an excellent book on Cold Harbor called "Not War But Murder". It includes about 10 pages on the issue of the truce to collect the wounded. It's been a long time since I read the book, but I just did a quick scan of that section. If it weren't so tragic it would read like a comedy of errors - all kinds of miscommunications, delays, and misunderstandings (some of them intentional). Included in the latter is a clash of wills between Grant and Lee. Grant didn't want to admit defeat (as was customary when asking for a truce), and Lee wouldn't let the wounded be tended to until Grant did.

 

[BillO]

Thanks for the link.

 

[dvrmte]

I wish I could remember where I read this but an army on the defense must be stronger at all points than the offensive army. An offensive army of the civil war needed a 3 to 1 advantage at the point of attack.

So an offensive army didn't have to be stronger numerically, only at the point of attack.

Lee and Grant must have known this, as their tactics show.

Many Lee detractors suggest he should have fought a defensive strategy. I strongly disagree and think he did about as good as he could with his smaller army.

Grant couldn't sit idle and let Lee take the initiative, he knew better than that. Attack after attack throws the enemy off balance and puts them in a reaction phase.

A good example was Lee's strategy at Seven Days. He took alot of casualties due to poor performance by his subordinates but he kept McClellan off balance and pushed him back to his "change of base."

dvrmte