Grant killed in 1865

[Rusk County Avengers]

The other day, a producer/director friend got on to me to finish writing some scripts I've been playing with for a few months, (he said "Mike if you wait for life to stop getting in the way you'll be a hundred by the time you get done! Get to it already!) and I got to playing with other writing ideas instead (yup...). I got to reading and writing mainly for my own amusement, and partly because some folks said I was crazy to think it possible, a scenario where Gordon's Attack on Fort Stedman was successful.

Now this thread ain't really about that, but rather a what if born from that what if. I've been toying with the idea of Gordon's troops actually making it to City Point and Grant being killed, (maybe even Meade wounded), and it occurred to me. What would that do to General Sherman?

I don't think Sherman the psychopath many Southerners do, I see him as someone with a fearsome temper and capable of insanity when his temper was out of control long enough. Also someone who had a habit of spouting off hateful nonsense when in a bad mood. To me that is why he was viewed as such a brute and some folks throwing his own writings up as proof. I think he was just a good man who had a habit of going off on to his own little island.

Doing some reading, I've been re-reading where he cautioned his officers "to watch the soldiers closely and to prevent any violent retaliation by them" in the wake of Lincoln's killing at Ford's Theater. Plus there's his extremely generous terms of surrender to Joseph Johnson, and genuine attempt to end the war on the best terms. (I also think his way was the correct way to end the war. Such a shame people like Edwin Stanton and the Radical Republicans torpedoed it. America could have been better off in the long run.)

So here's the questions:
What do y'all think would have happened to Sherman if Grant was killed?
How would he have reacted differently?
What would have happened if Lee's Army was still in the field and Joseph Johnson continuing to head north to Virginia around the time of Lincoln's death?

To me Sherman is something of wild card. Would he have continued his present course? Would he have went nutty and become more vengeful than ever before? I simply don't know. How about y'all.

On a side note this hobby may be the perfect excuse to buy some new books...

 

[BillO]

It's not really a question of what would Sherman do but rather what Lincoln and the Republicans do.

 

[archieclement]

Not sure how it would made much a difference in 1865, the confederacy would still be in it's last months and Sherman established as commander. Earlier in the war without Grants support, Sherman's career might have followed a different path

 

[jackt62]

I think the more significant fact would be if the ANV's assault on Ft. Stedman were successful, and the ANV made it all the way to City Point. With or without Grant in command, the situation would have been perilous to the AOTP, although not a knockout punch. Lee's lines would be extended even further with its limited manpower, thereby exposing it to counter attack by the AOTP. In the meantime, Sherman in North Carolina would likely shift a portion of his force to that threatened Petersburg front, eventually overwhelming the ANV and bringing the situation back to where it was before Ft. Stedman. Sherman would have been an effective commander to take over from Grant if need be.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

For me the quote from Sherman about Grant standing by him when he was crazy makes me wonder if he was capable of falling back into madness. Grant dead, Lincoln dead, and the AoP in retreat from Petersburg leaving Lee free to head south to meet up with Johnson and the political pressure above all else screaming for vengeance makes me wonder how Sherman would have reacted.

I bet he would have fallen into spouting off stuff about eradicating the South's population and exiling them to make denizens of the land more than he ever did before would have gotten folks in DC to saying he's crazy again.

I wonder if the idiots in Government would have decided to replace him with Grant and Lincoln dead. I doubt he could have launched an aggressive offensive into Virginia before Lincoln's untimely death. Case in point, he didn't in reality.

 

[bankerpapaw]

I think Sherman would have been devastated by Grant's death, but I don't think he would have gone over the edge. He would have continued to get the job done.

 

[DaveBrt]

Since your what if is based on a completely unbelievable set of events (CS captures Ft Steadman, CS makes it to City Point, CS captures City Point, CS force at City Point can prevent itself from being cut off, and the CS had enough manpower left to hold Petersburg while much/most of the army is away at City Point) I suppose you can have Sherman respond any way you want him to. It would be about the 30th of March before Sherman would know about the loss of City Point and Grant and it seems unlikely to me that Lincoln would order him to go to Petersburg. Bentonville would have been long over and the AOT no longer had a chance of catching the marching Sherman by surprise. So why would not Sherman be left to finish off the AOT and take Raleigh?

But you want us to guess the mental state of Sherman if all this happens. Have him do whatever you want him to in order to make your story work.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Since your what if is based on a completely unbelievable set of events (CS captures Ft Steadman, CS makes it to City Point, CS captures City Point, CS force at City Point can prevent itself from being cut off, and the CS had enough manpower left to hold Petersburg while much/most of the army is away at City Point)

I once thought it unbelievable, but instances like Lee's victory at Chancellorsville, Jackson's success in the Valley Campaign, and Early at the gates of Washington in 64, all were completely unbelievable. Its my theory that audacity on one side, underestimation on the other combined with just dumb luck in war results in miracle for one side and impossibility for the other makes for a possible event.

And in my reading of the Fort Stedman affair, I see many possibilities for what I said. Grant, Lincoln, Meade, and other senior officers at City Point getting ready for a review and believing there was no threat of Confederate attack, the Union Army at ease in general under the command of General Parke not expecting it makes for one heck of a what if.

I think the only thing that stopped Gordon's attack was his famished soldiers stopping for food and all the wild cheering in Fort Stedman that alerted Union troops. Oh and some parts of Gordon's plan being a little too ambitious. And timing being off if I remember right...

In a War overflowing with unbelievable turn arounds, I wouldn't say something like Confederates succeeding at Fort Stedman and making it to City Point as a 100 percent off the table.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

I suppose you can have Sherman respond any way you want him to. It would be about the 30th of March before Sherman would know about the loss of City Point and Grant and it seems unlikely to me that Lincoln would order him to go to Petersburg. Bentonville would have been long over and the AOT no longer had a chance of catching the marching Sherman by surprise. So why would not Sherman be left to finish off the AOT and take Raleigh?

But you want us to guess the mental state of Sherman if all this happens. Have him do whatever you want him to in order to make your story work.

I'd personally bet Lincoln would keep him where he was, just with added urgency to finish off Johnson and get into Virginia to link up with the AoP. I'd not thought of it before but I think it entirely possible Sherman would have been promoted to take Grant's place.

As for the AoP at Petersburg, if Grant were killed and Meade cutoff from the army, I think the main thing the ANV would have going for it would be fear. There was the fear Grant had came and brushed away, but if the ANV pulled off such a coup as breaking out and attacking City Point in the same day, fear in the ranks and a leadership cut off from its commander would have greatly hampered a effective counterattack. I honestly think they would have not attacked, I think there a strong possibility of the army beginning a retreat. I also think Lee would have been unable to move out from Petersburg for a little while.

As for Sherman, I mainly wonder how all of that would have changed him. Would he have never issued the orders to take care not to pillage Raleigh? Would he become more aggressive and a more fearsome force then ever before?

How Sherman would have reacted in reality under such a shock and loss leaves me with a question mark. I guess I'll have to break down and buy a copy of his memoirs and see if I can in his head lol.

What if's are fun.

 

[DaveBrt]

I once thought it unbelievable, but instances like Lee's victory at Chancellorsville, Jackson's success in the Valley Campaign, and Early at the gates of Washington in 64, all were completely unbelievable. Its my theory that audacity on one side, underestimation on the other combined with just dumb luck in war results in miracle for one side and impossibility for the other makes for a possible event.

And in my reading of the Fort Stedman affair, I see many possibilities for what I said. Grant, Lincoln, Meade, and other senior officers at City Point getting ready for a review and believing there was no threat of Confederate attack, the Union Army at ease in general under the command of General Parke not expecting it makes for one heck of a what if.

I think the only thing that stopped Gordon's attack was his famished soldiers stopping for food and all the wild cheering in Fort Stedman, a that alerted Union troops. Oh and some parts of Gordon's plan being a little too ambitious. And timing being off.

In a War overflowing with unbelievable turn arounds, I wouldn't say something like Confederates succeeding at Fort Stedman and making it to City Point as a 100 percent off the table.

The capture of Stedman alone is the unbelievable that happened -- the rest is too far. After breaking out of Stedman, your Confederates have at least 10 miles to go, through and past Union camps and works, just to get to City Point.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

The capture of Stedman alone is the unbelievable that happened -- the rest is too far. After breaking out of Stedman, your Confederates have at least 10 miles to go, through and past Union camps and works, just to get to City Point.

That's what makes it a fun what if. After all such things had happened for both sides throughout the war.

 

[leftyhunter]

For me the quote from Sherman about Grant standing by him when he was crazy makes me wonder if he was capable of falling back into madness. Grant dead, Lincoln dead, and the AoP in retreat from Petersburg leaving Lee free to head south to meet up with Johnson and the political pressure above all else screaming for vengeance makes me wonder how Sherman would have reacted.

I bet he would have fallen into spouting off stuff about eradicating the South's population and exiling them to make denizens of the land more than he ever did before would have gotten folks in DC to saying he's crazy again.

I wonder if the idiots in Government would have decided to replace him with Grant and Lincoln dead. I doubt he could have launched an aggressive offensive into Virginia before Lincoln's untimely death. Case in point, he didn't in reality.

Wouldn't replacing Sherman in the above senario be up to President Andrew Johnson? While Johnson was a very racist man in no way would he tolerate an independent Confederate nation.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

I'd personally bet Lincoln would keep him where he was, just with added urgency to finish off Johnson and get into Virginia to link up with the AoP. I'd not thought of it before but I think it entirely possible Sherman would have been promoted to take Grant's place.

As for the AoP at Petersburg, if Grant were killed and Meade cutoff from the army, I think the main thing the ANV would have going for it would be fear. There was the fear Grant had came and brushed away, but if the ANV pulled off such a coup as breaking out and attacking City Point in the same day, fear in the ranks and a leadership cut off from its commander would have greatly hampered a effective counterattack. I honestly think they would have not attacked, I think there a strong possibility of the army beginning a retreat. I also think Lee would have been unable to move out from Petersburg for a little while.

As for Sherman, I mainly wonder how all of that would have changed him. Would he have never issued the orders to take care not to pillage Raleigh? Would he become more aggressive and a more fearsome force then ever before?

How Sherman would have reacted in reality under such a shock and loss leaves me with a question mark. I guess I'll have to break down and buy a copy of his memoirs and see if I can in his head lol.

What if's are fun.

Even if the AnV captured City Point in the long run how does the AnV feed itself?
Certainly not with food from the Union occupied Carolina's. Food was being imported from Western Europe but with the fall of Wilmington that food stoped being imported.
Leftyhunter

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Wouldn't replacing Sherman in the above senario be up to President Andrew Johnson? While Johnson was a very racist man in no way would he tolerate an independent Confederate nation.
Leftyhunter

That's actually an excellent point, I wonder what Andy's opinion of Sherman was? I was focusing on Stanton, but Johnson would be someone to focus on.

However considering how Stanton practically became a dictator in the confusing aftermath of Lincoln's assassination, I wonder if he would have resisted Johnson becoming President in any way. But then again, Stanton and others in Lincoln's Cabinet were almost jubilant he had been killed and Johnson replaced him because they felt Lincoln would be to soft on the Rebels...

Their attitudes, as well as Johnson's attitude, would be significantly different in this what if considering Lee's Army would still be in the field and Richmond still in Confederate hands.

All the potential chaos in that scenario would make for an awesome novel!

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Even if the AnV captured City Point in the long run how does the AnV feed itself?
Certainly not with food from the Union occupied Carolina's. Food was being imported from Western Europe but with the fall of Wilmington that food stoped being imported.
Leftyhunter

Fort Stedman was literally about the last offensive effort the ANV was capable of. If it had been successful and City Point taken with the AoP in retreat to rethink and reorganize I honestly think the food situation would have been crippling to any effort by Lee to pursue.

I'm sure he would have tried to send at least one corps to follow them but only to shadow them for the time being, but as far as him heading South to link up with Johnson and go on the offensive, I don't think so.

Most people tend to willfully and even gleefully, (especially Lost Causers) that Lee's Army was the best uniformed, best supplied, and best armed it had EVER been in its retreat from Petersburg. Except for horses and food.

The ragged, barefoot, and near naked Confederate soldier was completely gone by 1865. Everywhere. The Depot system and importation of millions of yards of cloth from Britain, had ensured that. I think that's why the rank and file seemed to have high moral when retreating from Petersburg, at least till they realized they weren't going to get food.

I'm not sure they were as undersupplied in food as many think. Lee telegraphed the government to send them food at Farmville, which famously had a mix up that completely undone their chances when the food went elsewhere and they ended up with trainloads of guns, ammo and such.

There's no chance there was enough food for an offensive, but playing defense, apparently they were had food for that much.

 

[leftyhunter]

That's actually an excellent point, I wonder what Andy's opinion of Sherman was? I was focusing on Stanton, but Johnson would be someone to focus on.

However considering how Stanton practically became a dictator in the confusing aftermath of Lincoln's assassination, I wonder if he would have resisted Johnson becoming President in any way. But then again, Stanton and others in Lincoln's Cabinet were almost jubilant he had been killed and Johnson replaced him because they felt Lincoln would be to soft on the Rebels...

Their attitudes, as well as Johnson's attitude, would be significantly different in this what if considering Lee's Army would still be in the field and Richmond still in Confederate hands.

All the potential chaos in that scenario would make for an awesome novel!

Our friend @Pat Young might be more familiar with Andrew Johnson. Not sure how Johnston could be denied the presidency other the assassination then of course the Speaker of the House becomes President with a now huge bodyguard. Not seeing a silver lining for the Confederacy if City Point is taken. The only functioning Confederate Port is Galveston and only a very small percentage of Confederate cotton is being exported. Per a source quoted by @Poorvile throughout the ACW less than ten percent of the Confederacies cotton was exported with approximately ten percent of that total being siezed by the Union Navy. The Confederacy is simply not economically viable. At this stage the slave owners are desperate to make peace even if it means the end of slavery and the Confederacy; after all one can't even eat cotton.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

That's actually an excellent point, I wonder what Andy's opinion of Sherman was? I was focusing on Stanton, but Johnson would be someone to focus on.

However considering how Stanton practically became a dictator in the confusing aftermath of Lincoln's assassination, I wonder if he would have resisted Johnson becoming President in any way. But then again, Stanton and others in Lincoln's Cabinet were almost jubilant he had been killed and Johnson replaced him because they felt Lincoln would be to soft on the Rebels...

Their attitudes, as well as Johnson's attitude, would be significantly different in this what if considering Lee's Army would still be in the field and Richmond still in Confederate hands.

All the potential chaos in that scenario would make for an awesome novel!

If Johnson is assinated the next question is what would the Speaker of the House do as President. If said Speaker is now enraged at the Confederacy it doesn't bode well for the South.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

For me the quote from Sherman about Grant standing by him when he was crazy makes me wonder if he was capable of falling back into madness. Grant dead, Lincoln dead, and the AoP in retreat from Petersburg leaving Lee free to head south to meet up with Johnson and the political pressure above all else screaming for vengeance makes me wonder how Sherman would have reacted.

I bet he would have fallen into spouting off stuff about eradicating the South's population and exiling them to make denizens of the land more than he ever did before would have gotten folks in DC to saying he's crazy again.

I wonder if the idiots in Government would have decided to replace him with Grant and Lincoln dead. I doubt he could have launched an aggressive offensive into Virginia before Lincoln's untimely death. Case in point, he didn't in reality.

Not an expert on Speaker of the House Colfax but has Colfax sponsored the 13th Amendment I can't see him as tolerating an independent Confederate nation.
Not sure how the Confederacy survives under either a President Colfax.
Leftyhunter

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

@leftyhunter I never let the idea of Johnson being denied or assassinated enter my mind, just a scenario of political intrigue by Stanton to make him an ineffective President, something of President in name only.

To me the only hopes of Confederate success in a scenario of taking City Point and the AoP falling back are these:
1. Sherman removed from command and a complete imbecile replacing him.

2. The Union hastily demands offensive action from the AoP before its ready in an effort to get the ball moving forward and quiet political chaos and is forced into a battle like Cold Harbor or Spotsylvania, a scenario the ANV was still capable of winning.

3. The repeated hammer blows of Grant's death, AoP retreating from Petersburg, combined Lincoln's Assassination causing so much political chaos that the Union has no choice but to consider a cease fire to stall for time to get it's house in order.

If we go with the latter, I can't see the Union lifting the blockade or withdrawing from anything they control, in other words, ports and other cities. But if a ceasefire were to happen, it would give the Confederacy some time to restock on food. They probably could have won the war with the guns and ammo they had, the only problem was food. At least in Virginia and the Carolinas.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Lets say under this scenario the CSA somehow manages to win, I can't see the US Government allowing all the Seceded States go. I would bet Tennessee, and Florida would be forced to remain in the Union. It would be crippling to the CSA economically, but I bet the two America's would be VERY antagonistic towards each other. I also bet some underground organizations supported by political leaders on both sides would form.

Probably two in the North, one funded by abolitionists, and one by folks interested in reunifying the two countries on Northern terms. And one in the South trying to wrest Tennessee and Florida back, with a little vengeance for the war.

Actually vengeance on both sides...