Go around the Third Amendment

gary

Major
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
In case anyone forgot, the Third Amendment reads:

"No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."

So what was the manner prescribed by law that enabled some officer from taking over the house as his HQ or a surgeon using a house as a hospital? We read about it all the time where there's a battle and some general moves in.

Funny but I never noticed it until recently. :D
 
The McLean House in Appomattox was not only occupied (but not as quarters), but looted by the officers. Fourth Amendment Search & Seizure issue comes up too. Has the McLean's ever been compensated for the looting?

Was the "prescribed by law" law by force of arms/might makes right/just you try to stop me/waccha gonna do 'bout it? I'm really curious if there's any relevant law.
 
General Order No. 100,
The Lieber Code
Article 37:

Art. 37.

The United States acknowledge and protect, in hostile countries occupied by them, religion and morality; strictly private property; the persons of the inhabitants, especially those of women: and the sacredness of domestic relations. Offenses to the contrary shall be rigorously punished.

This rule does not interfere with the right of the victorious invader to tax the people or their property, to levy forced loans, to billet soldiers, or to appropriate property, especially houses, lands, boats or ships, and churches, for temporary and military uses,
Art 38 is also relevant:

Art. 38.

Private property, unless forfeited by crimes or by offenses of the owner, can be seized only by way of military necessity, for the support or other benefit of the army or of the United States.

If the owner has not fled, the commanding officer will cause receipts to be given, which may serve the spoliated owner to obtain indemnity.

The "for support" allows for HQ or hospitals or other military needs.

OK, Art 37 applies to "hostiles countries" but if it was a rebellion, then that isn't a hostile country is it? To apply it is a tacit admission that the Confederacy is another nation and any part of the United States. Also, since Maryland and other states like Pennsylvania were Union, Art 37 could not be the basis for Meade or anyone else occupying a private residence uninvited.

ETA: Apparently Congress never defined what it meant "as prescribed by law" and that was left to the Executive branch to promulgate the rules. To this day Congress hasn't but if it does, somebody else will write it for them and present it to Congress as a complete package deal.
Lieber Code link
 
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In case anyone forgot, the Third Amendment reads:

"No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."

So what was the manner prescribed by law that enabled some officer from taking over the house as his HQ or a surgeon using a house as a hospital? We read about it all the time where there's a battle and some general moves in.

Here's Justice Story's simple notice of the Third Amendment...


Col. Robert N. Scott's "Analytical Digest of the Military Laws of the United States" (1873) observes that to that time the Congress had not chosen to prescribe a specific manner of proceeding to billet soldiers in private houses by statute law. Consequently all such billeting of troops in war was done, when done, relative to the laws and customs of war alone.

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But in conformity with the Third Amendment protections for US Citizens there were post-war laws enacted by Congress providing indemnity for use of houses as military quarters. An example...

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From an 1875 schoolbook by Calvin Townsend:

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But turning to the issue of the citizens south of the Mason-Dixon line, the Amendment was apparently no protection. To explain, the USA recognized the prevailing circumstances there after 1861 as a big insurrection...

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And under such circumstances even the Southern non-combatants abiding the Confederacy more or less were left outside the protections of the Constitution and laws regarding property...

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So relative to war, like the Third Amendment regards, the citizens of insurrectionary districts (in a civil war) were not protected by it's provision of protection by laws of Congress. A War Department explanation:

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The McLean House in Appomattox was not only occupied (but not as quarters), but looted by the officers. Fourth Amendment Search & Seizure issue comes up too. Has the McLean's ever been compensated for the looting?

Apparently as a courtesy the Union officers attempted to pay Mr. McLean for his parlor furniture. General Sheridan gave him for example 20 dollars for the table used by Gen. Grant. Gen. Ord paid him 40 bucks for another, etc., but Mr. McLean is said to have balked, but the furniture was taken anyway. Says one account...

"Officers then began forcing money into McLean's hands, but McLean threw it back. Suddenly there was a rush, and the furniture was gone..."

The officers etc. made off with the stuff with or without McLean's permission. The Lieber code, G.O. no. 100, required the Army to distinguish between "loyal" and "disloyal" citizens in rebellious districts (Article 155); and the latter no matter how friendly or courteous they might have been otherwise. McLean fell under the "disloyal" category as of that time, not taken the oath of allegiance to the US, by which he might have received somewhat more respect and concern for his private property.

The McLean's were not compensated officially. But had he sought legal redress the courts might have been no great help. For example, while Mr. McLean is not known to have been a "direct" insurgent as in an armed combatant, but he was an "indirect" one, having been known to have sold supplies to the Confederate army, paid taxes to the Confederacy, etc. which might have rendered him, in the eyes of the US courts, akin a public enemy during April, 1865...

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Consequently, had McLean sued in US court post-war it might have turned out as disappointing as this case...

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Anyways, while US troops remained at Appomattox Courthouse, Mr. McLean apparently sold food stuffs to the US Army Quartermasters there. In the midst of his post-war financial mis-fortunes President Grant appointed him to the United States civil service.

Was the "prescribed by law" law by force of arms/might makes right/just you try to stop me/waccha gonna do 'bout it? I'm really curious if there's any relevant law.

As mentioned previously, it appears such "prescribed by law" laws were subsequently passed to indemnify the claimants where warranted and approved by Congress. Otherwise, as noted above by the War Department description, persons relative to laws about insurrection and rebellion were subject to them, and not due any indemnity.

Relative to the laws of war, as mentioned, the US forces and the Confederate forces were belligerents...

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Consequently frequent "overruling military necessity" under the laws of war relative to private property fell upon the Southerners from both armies.

Some 1870s discussion on that score of property losses in war (with some notice of quartering in houses)...

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...

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General Order No. 100,
The Lieber Code

Thr "for support" allows for HQ or hospitals or other military needs.

OK, Art 37 applies to "hostiles countries" but if it was a rebellion, then that isn't a hostile country is it? To apply it is a tacit admission that the Confederacy is another nation and any part of the United States.

The Lieber code, promulgated by the War Department for the government of the Armies of the United States in April, 1863, equally provides for dealing with enemies foreign or those domestic. By the time the code was sent out to assist the Army's officers, the Supreme Court had already observed that the conflict was territorial in nature in the Prize Cases:

"It is no loose, unorganized insurrection, having no defined boundary or possession. It has a boundary marked by lines of bayonets, and which can be crossed only by force,--South of this line is enemies' territory, because it is claimed and held in possession by an organized, hostile and belligerent power."

For the United States the interior of this territorial insurrection after 1861 was "enemy" or "hostile country" relative to the laws of war, during the war...

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In similar language General Sherman wrote General Halleck in late 1864...

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Anyways, looking way down the list of the Lieber Code, Article 156 regards how the Army was instructed to view an insurgent domestic population, like that in the "enemy's territory" in the South which it occupied during the war...

"Common justice and plain expediency require that the military commander protect the manifestly loyal citizens, in revolted territories, against the hardships of the war as much as the common misfortune of all war admits.
The commander will throw the burden of the war, as much as lies within his power, on the disloyal citizens, of the revolted portion or province, subjecting them to a stricter police than the noncombatant enemies have to suffer in regular war; and if he deems it appropriate, or if his government demands of him that every citizen shall, by an oath of allegiance, or by some other manifest act, declare his fidelity to the legitimate government, he may expel, transfer, imprison, or fine the revolted citizens who refuse to pledge themselves anew as citizens obedient to the law and loyal to the government..."


Also, since Maryland and other states like Pennsylvania were Union, Art 37 could not be the basis for Meade or anyone else occupying a private residence uninvited.

Indeed.
Consequently, Article 38 from the Lieber code would be that relative to the people in Pennsylvania, Maryland, etc.

"Private property, unless forfeited by crimes or by offenses of the owner, can be seized only by way of military necessity, for the support or other benefit of the army or of the United States.
If the owner has not fled, the commanding officer will cause receipts to be given, which may serve the spoliated owner to obtain indemnity."


The above only counted for loyal citizens. As mentioned, no indemnity for insurgent or disloyal ones. For example, when Sherman marched to the sea he gave orders that friendly people in that district (among the disloyal population) should be given simple "certificates of the facts" by the foraging quartermasters, to certify their cooperation, "but no receipts."
 
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I am not sure I understand your point. There is no argument that a soldier is just as dead in an undeclared war as a declared one - to include those on foreign soil. But I don't think the 4th Amendment applies to foreign countries.

My point is that a war is a war, regardless of whether Congress declares it so or what euphemisms might be applied to it.

De facto, "peacetime" ceased with the when Fort Sumter and did not resume until at least the surrender of the last Confederate soldiers in 1865, and arguably not the withdrawal of the last Reconstruction soldiers in 1877.

De jure, "peacetime" ended with Lincoln's insurrection declaration of April 15, 1861 and did not resume until Johnson's declaration i
of Aug 20, 1866.
 
RedRover - you should write a legal brief (or article) for publication in Civil War Times. 😉

The cases were closed a long time ago of course. And courts were not adverted to principally relative to the laws of war.

The the principal case interesting the public was not to be tried in any courtroom, but as was said by civil war, in a "wager of battle." Senator Jefferson Davis of Mississippi, January 10, 1861:

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The US Supreme Court in the Prize Case (1862) decision observed such a process was afoot and awaiting a decision...

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The Wager of battle under the laws of war has been described as a trial of final appeal. The decision in the above case was considered rendered at Appomattox Courthouse. Lieutenant-General Grant was pleased to report on July 22, 1865...

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For his part, President Lincoln (April 11, 1865) in the wake of Appomattox observed so long as persons recognized the fact of the Union victory, what they thought otherwise was not of great importance...

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Then there's the issue of when the war began or ended as a question in the courts. They generally found on behalf of the USA that war was prosecuted against the insurrection (which had reached the scale of war) from the President's declaration of blockade April 19, 1861, to August 20, 1866 when the President declared the hostile opposition to US jurisdiction at an end. Congress recognized the war officially on July 13, 1861.

Colonel Scott's digest of Military laws (1873) observes of Congress' authority to declare war, and the President's to prosecute it whether declared by Congress or not.

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After Appomattox, etc., it was observed any further armed resistance to the US jurisdiction was no longer acting under the laws of war, since the Confederacy was surrendering and disbanding. From the New York Times:

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But the US forces continued to act as a belligerent exercising war power as necessary for another year in suppressing the remnants of the insurrection. The President proclaimed the war concluded in most Southern States on April 2, 1866, and in the State of Texas on August 20, 1866. Consequently so far as the courts determined, the war didn't commence or end in all of the Southern States at the same time...

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In 1894 the US Commissioner of Pensions reviewed these legal issues relative to his office...

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General Birkhimer's Treatise on Military and Martial law (Third Edition, 1914), defines the distinction between military government and martial law, and discusses the 1860s and 70s period.

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Relative to Reconstruction (after August, 1866), Congress subsequently enacted military government in the Southern States under the laws of Congress with its Reconstruction Acts. General Berkhimer later called this "Congressional Martial Law" as opposed to more common State Martial law. Mr. Whiting's treatise on US War Powers under the Constitution (43rd Edition, 1871) observes too this was not under the laws of war, but the laws of Congress...

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For example:

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Pages 442-447 describes the forms of post-war Military Government briefly.


Once the Southern States reestablished civil Government consistent with the reconstruction acts, etc. by the end of 1870, the US troops in the South were employed largely to enforce federal laws, and martial law when called upon by the States for aid (which to 1877 was frequent).

Mark L. Bradley's "U.S. Army and Reconstruction, 1865-1877" (2015) reviews operations in the Southern States in that period:

Robert W. Coakley's "Role of Federal Military Forces in Domestic Disorders, 1789-1878" (1988) gives a larger view of the pre- and post-war issues:
 
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Didn't the 13 colonies fight a war in part over British quartering troops in private homes.

Parliament passed the "Quartering Acts" of 1765 placing numbers of imperial troops in the Colonies, to be maintained among the people and at their expense. The act allowed for the use of "uninhabited" houses to be taken up in some cases...

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From 1770, Dr. Joseph Warren and company complained of the quartering of large numbers of British regular troops in Boston during 1769-70 during a period of peace, and when the local Militia was enrolled, armed and at the Royal Governor's, and King's, behest already.

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Parliament's Quartering Act of 1774 was even more offensive, as it expanded the authority throughout the Colonies, and as it allowed for the peacetime quartering of troops in any "uninhabited" private houses the Governor of each Colony might see fit to employ (with compensation) where the people would not otherwise billet them within 24 hours...

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War broke out in April, 1775, from which time quartering troops in private houses was not unknown, and sometimes American troops were quartered in private dwellings...

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From July 4, 1776, the "Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America" lays the complaint about quartering large bodies of troops among the Colonies in peacetime at the feet of King George III...

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In war the power of quartering/billeting in private houses, where necessity required, remained. Congress observed in late 1776...

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The Constitution of the United States (1787) was amended to include specific provision that no troops would be quartered in a private house (habited or uninhabited) without the owner's consent in peacetime (contrary to the British quartering acts), and in wartime, as prescribed by law (for compensation, etc.).


A century before the American Revolution King James II had been deposed in 1688's "Glorious Revolution" in part for quartering Royal troops in private houses in peacetime...

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And reflected in the Bill of Rights of 1689...against a standing army and illegal quartering of the troops...

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The US gov't asserted that the confederate states were in fact part of the USA not a foreign country, all of those states had elected state gov'ts as per the US constitution, ordinances of secession were drafted and adopted by secession conventions not the state gov't. Clearly the US gov't violated the third amendment as it destroyed/seized private property even from avowed unionists. Post war compensation was spotty at best with Petions for compensation often rejected.
This thread is a good one because it highlights the difficulties encountered by a gov't in dealing with a rebellion.
 
This may sound simplistic but if you support secession from the USA, and create a new nation, does the constitution apply to your citizens anymore?
In every war the US military has executed in other nations the protections granted citizens of the US by the constitution did not apply to the natives of the nation we had invaded, this was true in the Mexican War, in which men like Robert E Lee and many other future CSA officers and political leaders served, and it's been true in every war we have fought ever since.
The idea that a group of states can vote to leave the Union and still expect the constitution protections those states enjoyed when they were still in the Union is ridicules.
 
The Bill of Rights 1689 seems to be an anchor for the Protestant religion but part of it was recalling memories of the English Civil War (1642 - 48) and the 'standing army' of professional soldiers who initially enforced Paliament's will followed by Cromwell's totalitarian rule within 'the Commonwealth'. This was enforced by military 'governors'. Armies, traditionally, were raised for a purpose and disbanded afterwards whether subduing rebellion, invasion or foreign wars. Yes, there were always small armed units, but they were servants of higher individuals and billieted in their own barracks/castles. They were not a 'police force' to ensure compliance. The Constitution upheld that notion.

This explains both the British system of disbanding and raising regiments at the time and the state of the Union army in 1861. If there is no war, why is there a need for an army? Any regiments required for immediate action at certain locations were garrison troops billeted in barracks. 'Fencibles' were regiments raised for local defence/deployment when required and disbanded when not required.

Militias are basically civilians with a military role and used as a reserve. Most countries militias did not hold weapons at home in time of peace. However if members were spread out and a swift call-out was required locally, they did, hence the Second Amendment. The Swiss Army was/is basically a militia and currently still keep weapons at home during their service - but not ammunition, which was stopped in 2008. Training for militias varied, depending on periods of peace and war.

The Royal Navy was a different matter as the British relied on trade and most trade, if not all, was based on water transport. The RN 's job was keeping those trade routes open as well as defending the shores from invaders. The US Navy was basically the same.
 
This may sound simplistic but if you support secession from the USA, and create a new nation, does the constitution apply to your citizens anymore?
In every war the US military has executed in other nations the protections granted citizens of the US by the constitution did not apply to the natives of the nation we had invaded, this was true in the Mexican War, in which men like Robert E Lee and many other future CSA officers and political leaders served, and it's been true in every war we have fought ever since.
The idea that a group of states can vote to leave the Union and still expect the constitution protections those states enjoyed when they were still in the Union is ridicules.
But the union insisted those states were not independent but still part of the union, so aren't the civilians thus protected by US constitution. How do you know if the farmhouse you are approaching belongs to a loyalist or a rebel, a rebel may lie and claim to be a union man to try and protect property.
 

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