Go around the Third Amendment

gary

Major
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
In case anyone forgot, the Third Amendment reads:

"No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."

So what was the manner prescribed by law that enabled some officer from taking over the house as his HQ or a surgeon using a house as a hospital? We read about it all the time where there's a battle and some general moves in.

Funny but I never noticed it until recently. :D
 
This may sound simplistic but if you support secession from the USA, and create a new nation, does the constitution apply to your citizens anymore?
In every war the US military has executed in other nations the protections granted citizens of the US by the constitution did not apply to the natives of the nation we had invaded, this was true in the Mexican War, in which men like Robert E Lee and many other future CSA officers and political leaders served, and it's been true in every war we have fought ever since.
The idea that a group of states can vote to leave the Union and still expect the constitution protections those states enjoyed when they were still in the Union is ridicules.
No more ridiculous then the Union insistence they never left....which indeed if they didn't leave, Constitutional protections would remain in place :bounce:
 
But the union insisted those states were not independent but still part of the union, so aren't the civilians thus protected by US constitution. How do you know if the farmhouse you are approaching belongs to a loyalist or a rebel, a rebel may lie and claim to be a union man to try and protect property.
In a rebellion all the rules go right out the window.
 
If they didn't leave, they may comitted criminal actions.....but criminal actions in US still have constitutional protections to process, as well would civilians not accused of any crime.
 
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The US gov't asserted that the confederate states were in fact part of the USA not a foreign country, all of those states had elected state gov'ts as per the US constitution, ordinances of secession were drafted and adopted by secession conventions not the state gov't. Clearly the US gov't violated the third amendment as it destroyed/seized private property even from avowed unionists. Post war compensation was spotty at best with Petions for compensation often rejected.
This thread is a good one because it highlights the difficulties encountered by a gov't in dealing with a rebellion.
But the union insisted those states were not independent but still part of the union, so aren't the civilians thus protected by US constitution. How do you know if the farmhouse you are approaching belongs to a loyalist or a rebel, a rebel may lie and claim to be a union man to try and protect property.


There was a war. The insurrection was on the scale of civil war. It employed whole States, and the abiding State officials holding the offices of State Government prior were among the insurgents. A principal legal point made in the US courts:

"The war, in many of its aspects, was conducted as if it had been a public one with a foreign enemy." (Coppell v. Hall, 1868).

The populace akin a "foreign enemy" was the inhabitants of what's called the Southern Confederacy, which the USA found in a state of general insurrection. In the case of the The Circassian (1864), the Supreme Court reiterated that the rebellion in the several Southern States, had become a national civil war by the close of July, 1861.

"That the rebellion against the national Government, which, in April, 1861, took the form of assault on Fort Sumter, had, before the end of July, assumed the character and proportions of civil war, and that the blockade, established under the President's proclamation, affected all neutral commerce, from that time, at least, with its obligations and liabilities, are propositions which in this Court are no longer open to question."

Ultimately, and certainly by the Proclamation of the President of August 16, 1861 declaring whole States in insurrection (including their office holders), the US considers the State Governments in the South were overturned by rebellions (practically bloodless in themselves), which "rebel state" governments, as the "paramount force" then propelled their populations into the general insurrection against the USA on the scale of civil war. Considering the insurrection and rebellion, the only somewhat "lawful" hostile Government recognized by the USA in the Southern States during the war, was the "Confederacy" as a belligerent paramount military force acting under the laws of war over the South...

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After the Act of Congress of July 13, 1861, establishing that the insurrection making war on the USA had a territorial boundary which included several whole States, and the President's subsequent proclamation of August 16, 1861 declaring whole States in insurrection, only pro-Union people who LEFT the bounds of the "enemy territory" in Civil War of the rebel States and entered loyal States (or to neutral countries), "lost no rights" as a result of their temporary residence in the "rebellious portion of the country."

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All other "inhabitants" of the insurgent territory and States subject to it, during the war, who in some manner abided it were classed as legal "enemies." Consequently even "Union men" among the inhabitants passed from a condition of disloyalty to loyalty by oath as far as the USA was concerned. During the war, the USA offered pardon and amnesty to such citizens of the rebel states within the insurgent enemy/hostile territory subjected to US Military Government who would restore their "loyal" condition by subscribing to the oath of allegiance, which was recorded in each case. And these citizens were encouraged, particularly after 1863, to restore State Government in at least a provisional form while the war lasted. From December 8, 1863, the President proclaimed an amnesty and pardon for the civil offenses relating to insurrection and rebellion (viz. violations of the Confiscation Acts of 1861 and 1862, etc.) for all desiring to "resume their allegiance to the United States and to reinaugurate loyal State Governments... A full pardon is hereby granted to them and each of them, with restoration of all rights of property, except as to slaves and in property cases where rights of third parties shall have intervened..."

The pardon and amnesty did not mean they were no longer in a war zone, subject to military government. That continued until 1866 when the war ceased. But not before the "loyal" citizens of the revolting States had instituted provisional State Governments.


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The balance of the inhabitants of the hostile territory were in at least a "hostile" legal condition if not actually so, until the conclusion of the war in 1866.


Below is from an 1875 report published by Congress, and covers the subjects of citizens and property. It regrets the "Unionists" in the Southern States during the war could not be legally protected in their property rights by the courts and the Constitution, but observes they themselves had declined to openly resist and prevent the establishment of the "rebel" State governments and Confederacy over them and their property, and the resulting territorial insurrection rendered them insurgent enemies of the United States too... until restored to a "loyal" condition by means of the oaths of allegiance, etc. to which they subsequently subscribed. But their restoration to "loyal" condition had a date, proven by the certificates of their taking the oath, did not exempt them from the vicissitudes of war...

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Here is the response from Appomattox Court House NPS:

First of all, yes Wilmer McLean was reportedly compensated for most (but not all) of the furnishings and items taken by Union officers from the parlor following the surrender meeting on April 9, 1865. General Philip Sheridan paid Mr. McLean $20 in gold for Grant's table while General Edward Ord paid $40 in cash for Lee's table. Additionally lower ranking staff officers paid $10 each for the two chairs that the generals had used. Most of these original items are today on display in the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History in Washington, D.C. The park has exact reproductions on display in the McLean House parlor. Though the McLean's had been a very wealthy family, most of their wealth was tied up in enslaved people (emancipated as of April 9, 1865) and worthless Confederate currency. The U.S. gold and paper money ($80) was actually worth something and in today's value would be the equivalent of at least $4,000. After the surrender, General John Gibbon of the U.S. Army's 24th​ Corps used the McLean House as his Headquarters for several days. To our knowledge there was no compensation to the McLean's for this disturbance.

As to your other question, concerning the quartering of troops in a private home, a few things to consider. First of all, the 3rd​ Amendment applies to loyal American citizens. The U.S. Government and military considered Confederates to be in rebellion against the United States, therefore the protections of the constitution did not apply to Confederate soldiers or civilians. Additionally, the Lieber Code (General Orders No. 100), which was the set of laws that the U.S. military used during the Civil War, allowed for the seizure of enemy civilian property as "military necessity for the support or benefit of the army or of the United States." The only white Southerners who later received official compensation (via the Southern Claims Commission) for the seizure or use of their property during the war were those who could swear an oath that they had never supported the Confederacy. Even Northerners found out the hard way that military necessity often trumped law. During the Battle of Gettysburg, for instance, private homes and other property were turned into hospitals or headquarters (or destroyed) often without the consent of or compensation to the owner.
 
Decisions by the President, Congress and SC decreeing the inhabitants including unionists in the confederacy to be treated as foreign nationals is defacto recognition of the confederacy. This should put to rest the arguments on this forum on whether the CSA was a sovereign power or not.
 
Decisions by the President, Congress and SC decreeing the inhabitants including unionists in the confederacy to be treated as foreign nationals is defacto recognition of the confederacy. This should put to rest the arguments on this forum on whether the CSA was a sovereign power or not.
Despite that, it was not recogised as a 'country' by other foreign governments, especially GB (officially declared 'Neutral') and France who also refused embassies and ambassadors. The nearest they got was being considered as 'belligerents' as well as a certain amount of sympathy in certain geographical areas..
 
I believe whoever sent that is wrong. The Union never considered the Southern states 'out' of the Union and succession as illegal. As such, the Constitution and its protections were still very much in-force.
Certainly the "official" stance was they were not out the union.......which would/should meant protections were in place.

Certainly particularly in regards to civilians as some number were Unionist all along.

Though use of martial law could be used replace civil law.
 
Decisions by the President, Congress and SC decreeing the inhabitants including unionists in the confederacy to be treated as foreign nationals is defacto recognition of the confederacy. This should put to rest the arguments on this forum on whether the CSA was a sovereign power or not.

They weren't decreed as if "foreign nationals" by the USA. Just domestic enemies in a civil war; the laws of war being largely the same when fighting either foreign enemy countries or domestic enemies in revolt. However, to the extent under the customs of war domestic enemies in rebellion were to be treated with more severity, the Lieber Code for the US Armies from 1863 directed the same.
Relative to the Constitution etc. they remained during the war US nationals, citizens etc., found in insurrection and rebellion, and potentially subject to prosecution in the courts (once reestablished). Neither the President or Supreme Court suggested the people in the Confederacy were other than US citizens, and Congress passed acts specifically relative to them as citizens (like the Confiscation Acts of 1861 and 1862).

The Southern Confederacy during its brief existence certainly claimed to be "sovereign" over its territory, using what it called expanded and combined "State sovereignty" against the United States. Its evidence was war (Jeff Davis, Rise and Fall, II, 281). But it attempted to employ citizens of the United States for that purpose rather than foreigners who owed the US no allegiance.

During the war the Supreme Court observed in the Prize Cases their insurgent cause in waging the rebellion as a war was to absolve those States' citizens of US Jurisdiction if possible...

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The war ended without so absolving them of their allegiance to the USA, and all were still subject to potential prosecution in courts of law. Most were given amnesty or pardon by the President between 1863-68, or later relieved by Congress from any disabilities under the 3rd section of the 14th Amendment for rebellion or insurrection.

While during the war the United States conceded the status of belligerents in a civil war upon the Confederate military (as an Army of US citizens acting for States in rebellion), they never admitted any sovereign political authority in the Confederacy... de jure or de facto...

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For a comparison, Chief Justice Chase in Thorington v. Smith (1868) observed the government of Cromwell over England was certainly de facto, in that upon restoration of Royal authority, many of its acts remained on the books. In exact contrast, the Southern Confederacy left behind no law etc. of itself upon the United States. Chase observes while some might call it "de facto" government during its brief exercise of power, the Confederacy was merely a temporary "paramount force" over the Southern States...

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None of the above exactly any surprise. For example from well before 1861 Thomas Jefferson in 1811 observed the mere ability of unsound States to employ their civil or military powers against the USA cannot handily sever the Union...

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Or President Jackson in 1832, observing thirty years before the Prize Cases in 1862 that the States cannot absolve their citizens from allegiance to the Union in such cases either...

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From the beginning of the war, etc. President Lincoln, Dec. 3, 1861 reiterated the People of the South remained US citizens, and not foreigners.

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During its course... Lt. Frank Haskell, USA in 1863...

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At its close, as noted by General J.L. Chamberlain, USA...

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Afterward, as noted by Gen. J.B. Gordon, late CSA...

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Into the the next century, as observed by Harry Pratt Judson...

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And to the present century. The US courts most recently found in the case of Griffin v. Veterans Affairs, for the latter. Given the US Government's maintenance of the graves of Confederate War dead, etc. as "United States citizens" who fought in a civil war, is yet observed...

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It would seem to me the official position, adopted by Lincoln and the government was they had not left the United States, therefore would remain United States citizens.

That said there were those within the Union who disagreed and indeed viewed them all as disloyal, enemy, and not as US citizens......

Which ironicly would make that segment in defiance to United States law and policy as well, whether prosecuted or not, wouldn't it?
 
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