Gettysburg Bullet Identification

[Nathan Stuart]

Hello. I need help to identify what type of bullet this is please (see pictures) . It's .45 caliber, 1.40 inches long and in fired condition. The bullet was found in the Gettysburg area many years ago. I've got a good idea what it is, but I would appreciate any firm views for confirmation. Thanks.

 

[upton j.]

Conf. Whitworth

 

[UCVRelics]

Yep Whitworth

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy. I could be wrong, but according to Thomas & Thomas the Whitworth bullet had a cone cavity. This example has a dish cavity with a dot. Thomas states these were previously identified as Whitworth, but are .45-70 Sharps from 1876-188o's. Reference Thomas "A Handbook of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges" page 25. Sorry to rock the boat.

 

[rebed19th]

I agree with the previous post. All references call this bullet a post civil war sharps. I have seen lots of sellers on eBay list them as whitworths. When a seller does not show the cavity in their photo BEWARE..

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

I own quite a few Civil War fired Whitworths. This bullet has the same shape, dimensions and look of a cylindrical Whitworth. I bought it a while ago from a reputable and experienced dealer who certified it was one. I also have a signed and detailed statement of its provenance which I have no reason to doubt.

I'm aware of the reference in the Thomas & Thomas Handbook (page 25). The authors say that Whitworth-like long bullets with dished bases and a dot in the center are actually .45 caliber Sharps bullets from the post-Civil War period. I have another bullet, which is a guaranteed hex Whitworth dropped at Spotsylvania. It too has a dished base, but no dot in the center. It's the dot in the center that looks different to me.

The pictured fired bullet was found (legally) in the area between the saddle of the Round Tops and the Taneytown Road. I read that on July 2 a small group of Union soldiers, including Berdan Sharpshooters armed with Sharps rifles, took up a defensive position (facing westwards) behind a north/south running stone wall. The stone wall was east of Little Round Top and the saddle (between the Round Tops) and was on the western edge of a field that bordered the Taneytown Road. The position was about 150 yards from the advancing 15th​ Alabama moving towards the southern spur of Little Round Top. This is in the vicinity where the relic was dug. If that was the case, then the bullet could not be a Union Sharps, as these Northern snipers used larger caliber Sharps bullets with grooves/rings.

If the discharged projectile was dug in the area at the rear of the Federal manned stonewall, it's more likely to be a Confederate fired bullet.

If it was a Confederate Whitworth, I couldn't find any evidence of Whitworth sharpshooters being present at the southern end of the battlefield. Please see my thread, 'Whitworths fired at Little Round Top' recently posted under the Battlefield Forum, 'Gettysburg'.

Although the bullet appears to be a Whitworth (except for the dot in the center of the dished base), with no account of Whitworth activity in the area, I am now questioning what kind it is. If it's not a Whitworth (or Sharps), could it be another kind of bullet maybe fired by a Confederate sharpshooter with a private target rifle in one of the Texas or Alabama regiments approaching the southern end of Little Round Top?

Any further comments, thoughts or ideas would be welcome.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Nathan,
IMHO it appears to be a .451 bullet fired from a Thomas Turner long range rifle. A photo of such a bullet mold is below. The dimple in the base is apparent. Turner's Patent Rifling was 5 narrow lands with progressive twist. Had the bullet been fired from a Whitworth barrel it would have traces of 6 flat sides with sharp edges, more apparent near the base than the nose.

This .451 long Pritchett style bullet was made by John Greenwood, and often found in cased Turner rifles.

A CS hex mold

Flat raised base with base grease grove

A side pour mold, rarely encountered in .451

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Lanyard,

Thanks for your informative explanation and photographs.

I'm inclined to agree with you. It makes sense what you say. I can readily see how the bullet fits the mold in the picture. I also get your point about the rifling effects of the fired Whitworth barrel. I would still like to see an actual Turner bullet (preferably fired) from the period, to directly compare.

From what I've read, large bore Turner rifles were used by Confederate sharpshooters, but it's less clear whether the smaller .451 caliber Turners were in use during the Civil War.

Given where the bullet was dug, it would have been elements of Colonel Oates's 15th​ Alabama attacking the southern end of Little Round Top that most likely fired on Captain Morrell's Union sharpshooters at the stone wall, east of Little Round Top. During his assault, Oates detached two separate small units (of about 50 men each) eastwards in the vicinity of Morrell's men. Adjutant Waddell's detachment was sent beyond the right flank to pour a flanking fire on the 20th​ Maine. Captain Shaaff's Company A, was dispatched to capture the previously sighted large number of Union ordinance wagons standing off the Taneytown Road, behind Morrell's line of men. I believe both these small units came across the Federals behind the stone wall and exchanged fire with them. While most soldiers in the 15th​ carried larger caliber Enfields, I read the Company A boys were Oates's best skirmishers and they used target rifles. One (or more) may well have possessed a .45 Turner.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

I don't know of any "large bore" Turners' being made, however the Daw LR rifle {a few CS guns are known} was in .577 caliber, and the Medford [none known with CS association} was also made in both sizes. The Turner Patent Rifling was .451, and it's highly likely an Alabama soldier could have carried one which would have been available in Mobile {retail} before the port was closed.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Thanks for extra information. I believe the soldiers in Company A (the 'Cantey Rifles') hailed from Russell County in south-eastern Alabama. Seems plausible.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

In Fred Ray's excellent book, 'Shock Troops of the Confederacy' (page 278), the author describes the variety of English made match rifles, including the Whitworth and Kerr, that were imported into the Confederacy as sharpshooter's weapons. One of these was the .451 caliber Turner match rifle, of which a few made it to the South. I really would like to see a picture of a Turner .45 caliber bullet (fired or dropped) to compare, if anyone out there has one.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

To follow-up on the use of Turner rifles in the Civil War. Fred Ray claims it's very likely that the Confederacy used Turner rifles as sharpshooter weapons, although there is a lack of specific evidence, http://www.brettschulte.net/CWBlog/2016/02/17/the-turner-rifle/

He says a variety of small bore (.451 caliber) English match/target rifles, like the Whitworth, Kerr and Turner, were bought by the South (albeit in small quantities). Because many of these rifles looked quite similar or some were hybrid assemblies, as well as due to inadequate period descriptions, the existence of these weapons were probably not recorded accurately.

The investigation continues.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Hello. I need help to identify what type of bullet this is please (see pictures) . It's .45 caliber, 1.40 inches long and in fired condition. The bullet was found in the Gettysburg area many years ago. I've got a good idea what it is, but I would appreciate any firm views for confirmation. Thanks.

View attachment 357233

View attachment 357234

View attachment 357237

View attachment 357238

The pictured bullet looks like a long cylindrical Trans-Mississippi Whitworth round, which was pictured and described by J. A. Morrow in his book, 'The Confederate Whitworth Sharpshooters' at page 76. It's the same size and also has a teat in the hollow base.
Does anyone know about trans-Mississippi Whitworth bullets?

 

[acwrelics]

The bullet pictured at the top of this thread is a .45 Sharps style bullet. You wouldn't see a crimp mark on it because they were paper patched bullets. There are too many varieties to count and they are often misidentified as Whitworth bullets. Civil War period Whitworth bullets will have a deep conical cavity or a truncated cone cavity. The hex versions were meant for target shooting and were used well beyond the Civil War era.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Thank you for the information. I appreciate your explanation. This is consistent with what the Thomas and Thomas 'Handbook of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges' says at page 25.

I understand the Sharps style .45 Caliber bullet came into existence well after the Civil War.

I now realize that it is probably not a Whitworth. If it is a post-war Sharps, that does not seem to fit with where it was recovered on the Gettysburg battlefield. The bullet was dug several decades ago by a local resident near Little Round Top. (At this stage, I have no reason to doubt this story). If one accepts this account, then I suppose a possible explanation would be that the bullet was fired in the vicinity several years after the end of the War.

 

[acwrelics]

The Sharps style bullets came into existence well after the War. It's very hard to pin down exactly which Sharps style cartridge these were manufactured for due to the abundance of newly chambered calibers. It's important to note that at this time, the re-loadable cartridge was made for the civilian market as well and the West was still growing. Boxes of bullets could be purchased for your cartridges which leads to an unknown amount of manufacturers. I would agree that your bullet was fired well after the war in that vicinity.

Quite a few projectiles have been recovered from Gettysburg that shouldn't be there. The .58 William's Type III bullet is one of these. They were not issued until well after the battle. The other one you see often is the Gettysburg recovered Spencer cartridge. While the Spencer rifles were in action in Gettysburg, I highly doubt every Spencer marked as "From Gettysburg" was actually recovered there.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Thank you for your further feedback.

Apparently, in the latter part of the 19th​ century, large numbers of people visited the Gettysburg battlefield.

A railroad was completed in 1884 to take more visitors around the terrain, including through the woods to a station on the east side of Little Round Top. The railway operated for many years. As the railway developed, more tourists poured in to enjoy picnics, playgrounds and pavilions, as well as tours of the battlefield. The railway later ran excursion trips from major cities direct to Little Round Top.

It is very plausible that during this period that one of these many visitors (perhaps inebriated) may have let off a Sharps shot. Alternatively, it is equally possible that one of the surrounding private landowners nearby may have fired the round.

 

[Tom Elmore]

Just for the record, in the summer of 1918, when then Lieutenant Colonel Dwight Eisenhower was stationed at Gettysburg with the Army's Tank Corps, he drilled his men by practicing with machine guns and small-caliber naval cannon mounted on truck beds, since actual tanks were unavailable. They used Big Round Top as a backstop, firing against targets positioned at the base of the hill. (source: In Lasting Tribute, the U.S. Army and Gettysburg, Since 1863, by Major Mark A. Snell, U.S. Military Academy, West Point, Blue & Gray magazine, Feb 1990, p. 31)

 

[Nathan Stuart]

That's interesting additional information. Thank you.

The caliber, length and long cylindrical shape of this fired bullet is similar to a Civil War period Whitworth. The provenance of the relic is also relevant, even though I found no evidence of Whitworths being employed at this part of the battlefield during the conflict. Upon closer examination of the item, however, the nose shape, patina and overall integrity of this used round suggests to me it is from a more modern era.

In 'A Handbook of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges', Thomas & Thomas indicate (at page 25) that this is a post-Civil War Sharps round. This projectile could well have been fired by one of the many visitors or frolicking partygoers to the area in the late 19th​ or early 20th century. It is also equally possible that it was discharged by one of the adjoining private landowners around the same time.

I suppose it is also quite plausible that the bullet was fired by one of those soldiers in the Army Tank Corps who were stationed there for drill in 1918. If it was, then it is more likely to have been a soldier using his own private weapon, as I believe this type of ammunition was not in use by standardized US Army ordnance at the time.