Gettysburg And Midway?

[davepi2]

Forgive me if this question has been raised before. Does anyone else besides myself notice the similarities between the battles of gettysburg and midway.? Both attacking forces though smaller and unable in the long run to keep up with a much better supplied enemy had had much early success anyways. Now each just needed one decisive victory to force their opponents to the peace table. Both attacking forces were considered superior in fighting ability and their commanders were also. Incidently both the the northern army and the pacific fleet had new leadership for both engagements. Different circumstances(halsey was confined to bed at the time). Both attacking forces wound up fighting battles much different then planned and it could be said lost in large part due to bad luck.(both lee and nugumo were blind in large part too their opponents location and strength). For both attackers the defeats suffered were impossible to recover from and they were both on the defensive for the remainder of their wars. Both winning commanders were criticized for not following up their victories and inflicting even more serious defeats. However in the end both the the Confederacy and the Empire of Japan were ground down by superior forces. It could even be seen that after the respective battles, the confederacy had to defend in the rear against sherman and japan had to defend against mccarthur (please forgive my spelling) while the main blow fell elsewhere. Just a few thought but isn't it surprising how history tends to repeat itself?

 

[TDMD]

Forgive me if this question has been raised before. Does anyone else besides myself notice the similarities between the battles of gettysburg and midway.? Both attacking forces though smaller and unable in the long run to keep up with a much better supplied enemy had had much early success anyways. Now each just needed one decisive victory to force their opponents to the peace table. Both attacking forces were considered superior in fighting ability and their commanders were also. Incidently both the the northern army and the pacific fleet had new leadership for both engagements. Different circumstances(halsey was confined to bed at the time). Both attacking forces wound up fighting battles much different then planned and it could be said lost in large part due to bad luck.(both lee and nugumo were blind in large part too their opponents location and strength). For both attackers the defeats suffered were impossible to recover from and they were both on the defensive for the remainder of their wars. Both winning commanders were criticized for not following up their victories and inflicting even more serious defeats. However in the end both the the Confederacy and the Empire of Japan were ground down by superior forces. It could even be seen that after the respective battles, the confederacy had to defend in the rear against sherman and japan had to defend against mccarthur (please forgive my spelling) while the main blow fell elsewhere. Just a few thought but isn't it surprising how history tends to repeat itself?

Actually, at Midway the attacking force (the Japanese) vastly outnumbered the USN. Also, the USN had inferior equipment in terms of the torpedoes and torpedo bombers. Our dive bombers were better, though.

One similarity is that the attackers in both cases had a bad case of victory disease. Although luck is a factor in every battle, I would say that it a little more prevalent at Midway. I would also say by virtue of the victory disease, both of the attackers overlooked the responses that the defenders could give them and understimated the courage and tenacity of the defenders. In Lee's case, he had cavalry with him, so he was not really blind, he just did not seem to trust the cavalry he had with him. In Nagumo's case, the observation planes saw nothing (much like Captain Johnston of Lee's staff on this date, 148 years ago) and the one that did had radio problems.

Actually, the Japanese were still on the offensive during the Guadalcanal Operations, as it was a very fluid situation. The Confederates in the West still attacked (Chickamauga, The 1864 Tennessee Campaign) and even Lee temporarily ran an offensive operation in the East (Early's 1864 Valley Campaign).

 

[ole]

Neither of which had much poop behind the efforts.

 

[davepi2]

thank you very much for the correction. Only I could figure 3 carriers outnumbers 4, and of course the Japanese had the largest batleships ever constructed. (I slink back into my cave in shame).

 

[Fifer]

Good subject, lot of similarities between these two battles. Both had great influence on the outcome of the war and the course of world history. However, at Gettysburg the odds were in favor of the Federal forces, they had the larger numbers, better weapons, and the tactical advantage of defense. Even if Longstreets attack had suceeded in taking Little Round Top and the Federal posistion on Cemetery Ridge had become undefendable, Meade would have fallen back to his prepared posistions on Big Pipe Creek, Maryland. Lee could have gone on further north but his supply line would have been cut and be forced to retreat to Virginia, or he could have attacked at Big Pipe. Eithier way his raid into Pennsylvania could not been sustained for long. Considering the pending Federal victory at Vicksburg, which had much greater strategic and political significance than the Gettysburg campaign, Lee would have had to destroyed the AOP and have siezed Washington to have caused the fall of the Lincoln Government. Considering the fact that Meade had greater numbers and the defense at both Gettysburg, and if need be Big Pipe, it would have taken a catastrophic blunder by the Federal leadership to have lost that campaign. In short, even if the Federals had lost at Gettysburg, they still would have won the war.

Midway on the other hand, the US Navy was not only technically outclassed but they were badly outnumbered. On top of that the stakes were much higher. If Midway had been taken the Japanese would have land based planes in range of the Hawaiin Islands. With our carrier force destroyed, nothing could have prevented a Japanese siezure of Hawaii. That being the case, considering the fact that tens of thousands of US citizens would have been at the mercy of the Japanese occupiers, the retaking of Hawaii would have been top priority for Roosevelt and the US government. This would have greatly effected allocation of men and materials, especially our committment to the war in Europe. If the Japanese had placed a large army in Hawaii, considering the fearful mountains of Hawaii, the battle for them would have been a bloodbath. Most likely we would have had to come to terms with the Japanese to get Hawaii back, or we would have had to abandon our war in Europe. The implications of that could still be a part of our world today. In short, at Midway the odds against a US victory were much longer, and the stakes were much higher. Midway was the greatest victory of American forces in the 20th century, maybe in our entire history. We won at Midway and we won the war. If we had lost at Midway we would have lost the war.

 

[TDMD]

thank you very much for the correction. Only I could figure 3 carriers outnumbers 4, and of course the Japanese had the largest batleships ever constructed. (I slink back into my cave in shame).

The IJN had 4 frontline carriers at Midway. They had the Akagi (Nagumo's flagship), Kaga, Soryu, and Hiryu (Yamaguchi's flagship). Hiryu was the last one sunk. The USN had the Enterprise and Hornet (Task Force 16) and the Yorktown (Task Force 17) along with whatever supporting vessels they could rustle up - none bigger than a heavy cruiser. And as you posted above, the IJN had super battleships with them.

 

[TDMD]

Good subject, lot of similarities between these two battles. Both had great influence on the outcome of the war and the course of world history. However, at Gettysburg the odds were in favor of the Federal forces, they had the larger numbers, better weapons, and the tactical advantage of defense. Even if Longstreets attack had suceeded in taking Little Round Top and the Federal posistion on Cemetery Ridge had become undefendable, Meade would have fallen back to his prepared posistions on Big Pipe Creek, Maryland. Lee could have gone on further north but his supply line would have been cut and be forced to retreat to Virginia, or he could have attacked at Big Pipe. Eithier way his raid into Pennsylvania could not been sustained for long. Considering the pending Federal victory at Vicksburg, which had much greater strategic and political significance than the Gettysburg campaign, Lee would have had to destroyed the AOP and have siezed Washington to have caused the fall of the Lincoln Government. Considering the fact that Meade had greater numbers and the defense at both Gettysburg, and if need be Big Pipe, it would have taken a catastrophic blunder by the Federal leadership to have lost that campaign. In short, even if the Federals had lost at Gettysburg, they still would have won the war.

Midway on the other hand, the US Navy was not only technically outclassed but they were badly outnumbered. On top of that the stakes were much higher. If Midway had been taken the Japanese would have land based planes in range of the Hawaiin Islands. With our carrier force destroyed, nothing could have prevented a Japanese siezure of Hawaii. That being the case, considering the fact that tens of thousands of US citizens would have been at the mercy of the Japanese occupiers, the retaking of Hawaii would have been top priority for Roosevelt and the US government. This would have greatly effected allocation of men and materials, especially our committment to the war in Europe. If the Japanese had placed a large army in Hawaii, considering the fearful mountains of Hawaii, the battle for them would have been a bloodbath. Most likely we would have had to come to terms with the Japanese to get Hawaii back, or we would have had to abandon our war in Europe. The implications of that could still be a part of our world today. In short, at Midway the odds against a US victory were much longer, and the stakes were much higher. Midway was the greatest victory of American forces in the 20th century, maybe in our entire history. We won at Midway and we won the war. If we had lost at Midway we would have lost the war.

Good stuff. I do have some comments though. Longstreet's July 2 target was the assumed left of the Federal line with an aim towards rolling it up. LRT was a sideshow, plus it would have been difficult for the Confederates to do anything with it as an artillery platform. The north face is heavily wooded.

Midway may be the greatest victory of thhe USN during WWII, but not far behind was the battle off Samar, part of Leyte Gulf.