George H. Thomas joins CSA

[OldReliable1862]

It's not entirely straightforward to judge how realistic this scenario is, though I'd say there are indications that it may not be beyond the realm of plausibility. At least one of Thomas' letters show he was not entirely against joining Virginia should it secede, even if he was vehemently opposed to secession.

If we assume a scenario where Thomas either never met his wife, Frances Kellogg, or is widowed before the war, he would probably continue to rely on his sisters in Virginia. While it is true that the influence of his wife on his decision to remain loyal was overblown by Southern writers after the war, I don't think it's something that should be dismissed outright.

Should he go South, Thomas would have had several friends and supporters, among them Davis, Lee, and Bragg. He would likely receive a division or a department before the end of 1861, as he has a great deal of seniority. While it is very doubtful that Thomas' presence alone could affect the outcome of the war as a whole (unless it somehow causes butterflies elsewhere), it will certainly affect its course to some degree.

One interesting possibility that was brought to my attention was Thomas receiving the Department of Norfolk instead of Benjamin Huger. It isn't a certainty of course, but I'm sure Thomas will realize the importance of Roanoke Island, and send Henry Wise reinforcements. If Thomas sends a large brigade - William Mahone's, for example - the Rebels may be able to oppose Burnside's landing directly.

 

[trice]

It's not entirely straightforward to judge how realistic this scenario is, though I'd say there are indications that it may not be beyond the realm of plausibility. At least one of Thomas' letters show he was not entirely against joining Virginia should it secede, even if he was vehemently opposed to secession.

I haven't seen the Thomas letter you mentioned here. If it is convenient to post the text, I'd appreciate seeing it.

If we assume a scenario where Thomas either never went his wife, Frances Kellogg, or is widowed before the war, he would probably continue to rely on his sisters in Virginia. While it is true that the influence of his wife on his decision to remain loyal was overblown by Southern writers after the war, I don't think it's something that should be dismissed outright.

I have never had the feeling Thomas would have chosen the Confederacy. I have no feeling about whether or not his wife made a major difference or not. In November 1860 Thomas was coming home on leave when he fell off a train platform in Lynchburg (injuring his back, living with bouts of pain the rest of his life, IIRR). That might be a critical point for a what-if to branch from

In real life, Thomas continued to New York after the accident, stopping in Washington to meet with General Scott, telling him not to rely on Twiggs in Texas. In January, Thomas was wondering if he could stay in the Army and applied for a job at VMI. Maybe if Thomas were laid up for a while down in Virginia and had been selected for the VMI job, he would have resigned and started settling into being a Virginian again. If April comes around and Thomas is (commandant of cadets?) at VMI when the Governor offers him the chief-of-ordnance spot in the Provisional Army, maybe Thomas would have taken it.

Should he go South, Thomas would have had several friends and supporters, among them Davis, Lee, and Bragg. He would likely receive a division or a department before the end of 1861, as he has a great deal of seniority.

There would also be A. S. Johnston (his regimental commander) and Hardee (the other Major in the regiment)

A bunch of his West Point classmates were Confederate generals in the war (Ewell the highest of them). OTOH, Thomas might have been more influenced by the Union generals who were his West Point roommates (William T. Sherman and Stewart Van Vliet)

While it is very doubtful that Thomas' presence alone could affect the outcome of the war as a whole (unless it somehow causes butterflies elsewhere), it will certainly affect its course to some degree.

One interesting possibility that was brought to my attention was Thomas receiving the Department of Norfolk instead of Benjamin Huger. It isn't a certainty of course, but I'm sure Thomas will realize the importance of Roanoke Island, and send Henry Wise reinforcements. If Thomas sends a large brigade - William Mahone's, for example - the Rebels may be able to oppose Burnside's landing directly.

Here is something it might have done -- it might have given Davis a new choice for a high level commander in 1862-63-64. "The South" never developed the new man it needed at that level. So maybe Thomas is that man, the alternative to Beauregard, E. Kirby Smith, Joe Johnston, Lovell, Pemberton, Bragg and Beauregard. Maybe he gets one of the major spots instead of one of them.

 

[OldReliable1862]

I haven't seen the Thomas letter you mentioned here. If it is convenient to post the text, I'd appreciate seeing it.

I was referring to the letter Thomas wrote Governor Letcher on 12 March, which you most likely are already familiar with. The relevant portion, which Einolf quotes in his biography, states: "it is not my wish to leave the service of the United States as long as it is honorable for me to remain in it, and, therefore, as long as my native state remains in the union, it is my purpose to remain in the army, unless required to perform duties alike repulsive to honor and humanity."

Einolf notes that Thomas may have simply been trying to avoid giving offense, but as he says, it seems more likely Thomas was genuinely trying to reach a decision in that period.

 

[JeffBrooks]

Imagine the Army of Northern Virginia under Lee with Jackson, Longstreet, and Thomas as corps commanders.

 

[trice]

Imagine the Army of Northern Virginia under Lee with Jackson, Longstreet, and Thomas as corps commanders.

I would guess it would probably be more likely to imagine Thomas replacing either Hill or Ewell in May 1863 when Jackson was killed. That gets us to a Gettysburg Campaign with Longstreet, Thomas and (Hill or Ewell) as Corps commanders.

High promotion for Thomas would have to be based on good performance in 1861-62. The litmus test for that with Lee seemed to be Seven Pines and the Seven Days, plus Jackson's Valley Campaign. But maybe Thomas would have commanded one of those divisions in the Seven Days, and maybe excellent performance would have been recommended.

 

[67th Tigers]

Thomas would have been above Longstreet in terms of seniority, and hence if he was in the ANV would have become the GOC of 1st Corps.

He would have been made a Lt Col in the regular ACSA, and might have been selected as the Colonel of the 1st CS Cavalry in May instead of Sibley. Either way, he would be senior to Garnett (dept of NW Va) and might have been assigned there vice Garnett. This would lead to Thomas commanding in the Shenandoah...

 

[OldReliable1862]

Thomas would have been above Longstreet in terms of seniority, and hence if he was in the ANV would have become the GOC of 1st Corps.

He would have been made a Lt Col in the regular ACSA, and might have been selected as the Colonel of the 1st CS Cavalry in May instead of Sibley. Either way, he would be senior to Garnett (dept of NW Va) and might have been assigned there vice Garnett. This would lead to Thomas commanding in the Shenandoah...

Personally, I still find it more interesting to see what Thomas would do in Huger's position. William Mahone had advocated for giving Thomas the chief of ordnance position in the Virginia militia, so I could see Mahone wanting Thomas at Norfolk.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Didn't Lee and Thomas serve together in antebellum Texas?

 

[bayouace]

Very interesting discussion.

 

[OldReliable1862]

Didn't Lee and Thomas serve together in antebellum Texas?

Yes indeed, the two became very good friends during their rides from fort to fort.

 

[JeffBrooks]

Didn't Lee and Thomas serve together in antebellum Texas?

Yes, and Thomas was a cavalry and artillery instructor at West Point when Lee was superintendent there. Thomas would sometimes dine with the Lees.

It's entirely speculation, since Thomas's letters were destroyed, but given that Thomas's father died when he was young, it's been suggested that Thomas saw Lee as a surrogate father.

 

[OldReliable1862]

It's entirely speculation, since Thomas's letters were destroyed, but given that Thomas's father died when he was young, it's been suggested that Thomas saw Lee as a surrogate father.

It's certainly possible that Thomas may have included any struggling over his loyalties in his letters, now destroyed. Of course, this is very much speculation.

 

[Luke Freet]

I get the feeling Thomas would initially serve in Virginia, before being transferred to the West (given his historic record, he doesn't seem to many hangups about his homestate like Jackson or Lee, so he'd probably go West either due to a suggestion from Davis or request). It'd be ironic to be seeing him fighting someone like, say, Rosecrans out in that theater.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

I get the feeling Thomas would initially serve in Virginia, before being transferred to the West (given his historic record, he doesn't seem to many hangups about his homestate like Jackson or Lee, so he'd probably go West either due to a suggestion from Davis or request). It'd be ironic to be seeing him fighting someone like, say, Rosecrans out in that theater.

While Thomas might not have felt wedded to his home state, I think because of their prewar connection Lee would have sought and gotten Thomas as his subordinate.

 

[OldReliable1862]

While Thomas might not have felt wedded to his home state, I think because of their prewar connection Lee would have sought and gotten Thomas as his subordinate.

You're probably right, and certainly Thomas was a great person to have as a subordinate.

Thomas was somewhat weird about promotion - when Buell was removed, he was offered the command, but declined it. When Rosecrans was given the position, Thomas was upset, as Rosecrans had been his junior, but his rank was retroactively altered to make him Thomas' senior. Also see Thomas' "I earned this at Chickamauga" remark when he was promoted to Major General of Regulars. He sounds somewhat bitter, at least to me - after all, he was junior to Sheridan.

 

[Luke Freet]

While Thomas might not have felt wedded to his home state, I think because of their prewar connection Lee would have sought and gotten Thomas as his subordinate.

good point. Lee was very clingy (for a back of a better term) about his top subordinates, especially after Jackson dies.
That said, I don't know how Lee would have handled two methodical corps commanders. Would be a strange dynamic.

 

[Luke Freet]

You're probably right, and certainly Thomas was a great person to have as a subordinate.

Thomas was somewhat weird about promotion - when Buell was removed, he was offered the command, but declined it. When Rosecrans was given the position, Thomas was upset, as Rosecrans had been his junior, but his rank was retroactively altered to make him Thomas' senior. Also see Thomas' "I earned this at Chickamauga" remark when he was promoted to Major General of Regulars. He sounds somewhat bitter, at least to me - after all, he was junior to Sheridan.

I think the Buell thing had more to do with the fact he batted for Buell, and that he didn't want to change horses midstream when the Confederates were in the middle of invading Kentucky.

 

[OldReliable1862]

I think the Buell thing had more to do with the fact he batted for Buell, and that he didn't want to change horses midstream when the Confederates were in the middle of invading Kentucky.

Very true, I think I have my timetable mixed up.

Even then, I don't think Thomas was allergic to promotion - he just wanted it done right. In this scenario, Thomas would have several friends more than happy to promote him - President Davis, Governor Letcher, and Lee being the most prominent.

While it would be greatly interesting to see Thomas go west, I don't think Sidney Johnston being made commander there will be butterflied. I don't think it can be assumed that Johnston will be killed, so he may last longer in command.

 

[OldReliable1862]

In the absence of Thomas, you may have someone like Ormsby M. Mitchel or Joseph J. Reynolds in command at the Mill Springs equivalent, if indeed it takes place. Even if they're defeated, I don't know how much would really be altered by it. Forts Henry and Donelson would still likely fall, and Nashville with it.

 

[OldReliable1862]

Interestingly, if Burnside's expedition fails at Roanoke Island, there may consequences for the war on the North Carolina coast. Without Reno to destroy the Culpeper locks, the Virginia might be able to escape via the Dismal Swamp Canal.