General Turchin's Retaliation

[Lubliner]

Due to his Russian training and military service in Europe before the Civil War, Turchin had acquired a belief system of treating insurgents harshly, thus putting him at odds with General Buell's policy of respecting and protecting southern citizens. He was court-marshaled by Buell after an incident in Athens, Alabama, but Lincoln stepped in and dismissed the charges and promoted him to Brigadier-General after Buell himself was relieved of his command 'due to incompetence'. Turchin went on to gain credit for his defense at Chickamauga, but this appears to have been swept under by Thomas' stand.
How much influence do you think Turchin had in the change of Government policy, toward harsher treatment against the southern confederacy?
Lubliner.

 

[TnFed]

Probably just implementing the same style of fighting he used in Hungary and the Crimea. I have always wondered about his abolitionist principles. Seems odd for a high ranking Russian officer, s

 

[TnFed]

surrounded by Serfs.

 

[major bill]

thank you for posting this. I do not believe I have ever read much about General Turchin and will have to do a google search for him.

 

[ErnieMac]

IMO Turchin's actions in Athens and subsequent court martial were a couple of boulders in a landslide. The court martial did not take place until July, 1862, at about the same time John Pope was arriving in northern Virginia with ideas of promoting a harder war. Though it would take a few more months, the gentlemanly war promoted by Buell and McClellan was on it way out.

 

[TnFed]

I don't know why it is...menment

 

[TnFed]

I don't know why but when I think of Turchin, I always think of the short story...Master and Man...it. is about the greedy self-centered Vasili and his lazy drunken ex serf Nikkita. I always read it and A Christmas Carol at Christmas...guess it is the theme of redemption, that I like about the books.

 

[Lubliner]

IMO Turchin's actions in Athens and subsequent court martial were a couple of boulders in a landslide. The court martial did not take place until July, 1862, at about the same time John Pope was arriving in northern Virginia with ideas of promoting a harder war. Though it would take a few more months, the gentlemanly war promoted by Buell and McClellan was on it way out.

So in essence it sounds as though Turchin had a more realistic vision of war. He had fought in the Crimean War, and McClellan had been sent there as an observer. Did McClellan ever represent a darker side of fighting from that experience, or was he mainly committed to fortifications and weaponry in his report?
Lubliner.

 

[TnFed]

So in essence it sounds as though Turchin had a more realistic vision of war. He had fought in the Crimean War, and McClellan had been sent there as an observer. Did McClellan ever represent a darker side of fighting from that experience, or was he mainly committed to fortifications and weaponry in his report?
Lubliner.

That is interesting about McClellan and fortifications. Turchin design the fortification of the Finnish coast for the Russian Empire. Said to be the most advanced of its day. I wonder if they consulted with each other in the Crimea?

 

[bdtex]

Interesting stuff. Beyond my reading about Chickamauga, I don't know much about Turchin. So much more to learn.

 

[wausaubob]

Turchin was minor figure. Van Dorn's raid destroyed the US depot at Holly Springs in December 1862. Grant's soldiers proceeded to take everything the civilians had. By spring, Dodge had numerous spies ranging throughout Confederate territory. Grant's expulsion order occurred at the same. He was not kidding about expelling people who were buying cotton with gold and silver, though not all of them were Jewish.
By May 1863 Van Dorn was dead under circumstances that support that the excuses given were manufactured. No Confederate army got into one of Grant's supply depots after Van Dorn's raid.
The escalation of tactics coincided with Turchin's actions in Alabama, but Grant, Dodge and Stanton were the main escalators.

 

[Lubliner]

So it appears that Turchin was overshadowed by other generals in command at telling events; with Athens there was Ormsby Mitchell and Bridgeport; at Chickamauga there was General Thomas. I am not sure how General King performed in that battle, though. @TnFed I wasn't aware of his work on fortifications in northern Europe. Possibly after the affair in 1862 while serving under Buell, he may have guarded his own public exposure?
Lubliner.

 

[TnFed]

I don't know if he kept a "low profile" or not. He later lost his mind unfortunately. The "Russian Thunderbolt's" military ability was highly regarded in his homeland. Even though Russia was cordial to the US during the Civil War, their Ambassador, Eduard de Stoeckl ,took exception to Turchin serving in the US Army. He wrote to Russia that the foreigners in the US Army were revolutionaries and adventurers. And it was a shame that a man who had served the Empire as well as Turchin should be in it. Or words to that effect.

 

[Rhea Cole]

The Europeans in the Army of the Cumberland were quite a colorful crew. Norwegians were members of a religious group that belonged to what would likely be called a cult today. They had followed a messiah figure to Minnesota. He had told them that they would miraculously speak English when they stepped off the boat.

An Irish officer who was a member of the original Signal Corps cadre led an invasion of England after the war.

General Willich had served over 20 years as an officer in the Prussian army. A member of the aristocracy, by some improbable means he became a socialist. His close friends Marx & Engels broke with him because he was too radical. The Germans that formed regiments in the Cincinnati area drilled in their mother language. They had a reputation for ferocity, taking few prisoners.

General Milroy's defense of the Nashville & Chattanooga RR is the subject of a book by DR Harold Bradley. Sent westward after a humiliating encounter with Lee, Milroy had something to prove. The rail road was protected with uninhibited ferocity. Death squads sought out individuals & murdered them on sight.

A particularly interesting account of the taking off the kid gloves was written by Union surgeon Dr. Eames. He was in command of a hospital in Murfreesboro TN during Forrest's celebrated July 1862 raid. Accounts of the action that brought Forrest to nations attention end after the 12 hour occupation of the town.

Previous to the raid, Union officers had bent over backwards to accommodate local residents. After Forrest's raid, Dr Eames wrote in his journal about citizens coming to ask for his intervention. The new regime was an occupation. The after effects of the raid were a disaster for local citizens.

 

[ErnieMac]

So in essence it sounds as though Turchin had a more realistic vision of war. He had fought in the Crimean War, and McClellan had been sent there as an observer. Did McClellan ever represent a darker side of fighting from that experience, or was he mainly committed to fortifications and weaponry in his report?
Lubliner.

My impression is that McClellan's biggest takeaway from his experience in Crimea was the strength of the Russian defensive fortifications at Sevastopol. Note that McClellan was not present during the siege, but arrived after the city had been taken and saw the results first hand. Some modern military historians suggest that McClellan's plans for siege operations at Yorktown and Richmond had their origin in Crimea.
https://emergingcivilwar.com/2016/05/16/the-ghosts-of-crimea-before-richmond/

 

[TnFed]

They were unusual to say the least. Turchin's wife stayed with him through his campaigns. I have read that she kept a diary throughout...Chickamauga, Missionary Ridge etc....giving the only woman's view of the campaign. However I have never read any portions of it.

 

[wausaubob]

The Europeans in the Army of the Cumberland were quite a colorful crew. Norwegians were members of a religious group that belonged to what would likely be called a cult today. They had followed a messiah figure to Minnesota. He had told them that they would miraculously speak English when they stepped off the boat.

An Irish officer who was a member of the original Signal Corps cadre led an invasion of England after the war.

General Willich had served over 20 years as an officer in the Prussian army. A member of the aristocracy, by some improbable means he became a socialist. His close friends Marx & Engels broke with him because he was too radical. The Germans that formed regiments in the Cincinnati area drilled in their mother language. They had a reputation for ferocity, taking few prisoners.

General Milroy's defense of the Nashville & Chattanooga RR is the subject of a book by DR Harold Bradley. Sent westward after a humiliating encounter with Lee, Milroy had something to prove. The rail road was protected with uninhibited ferocity. Death squads sought out individuals & murdered them on sight.

A particularly interesting account of the taking off the kid gloves was written by Union surgeon Dr. Eames. He was in command of a hospital in Murfreesboro TN during Forrest's celebrated July 1862 raid. Accounts of the action that brought Forrest to nations attention end after the 12 hour occupation of the town.

Previous to the raid, Union officers had bent over backwards to accommodate local residents. After Forrest's raid, Dr Eames wrote in his journal about citizens coming to ask for his intervention. The new regime was an occupation. The after effects of the raid were a disaster for local citizens.

The same thing happened in Mississippi. Grant told the citizens, we brought our own provisions, and your friends destroyed them. We are not going to starve with guns in our hands.
And by May Van Dorn was dead, shot with a pre arranged jealous husband excuse, which was probably a fabrication. Turchin was part of it, but Grant, Dodge, Durant and Hurlbut, where they main people escalating the war.

 

[turner ashby kidd]

Interesting thread.. Never heard about this and I'm originally from Alabama.
Will need to research this event. Thanks for posting..

 

[uaskme]

Shiloh was in April, sack of Athens in May, mid year Lincoln proclaims the EP. Suspect Shiloh had a lot to do with the Turn to Hard. But during this period along with Braggs invasion of KY, it happened.

Nadine became one of the Heroes at Chickamauga. She was on one of the wagons that supplied the 14th Corps. Thomas's Corps which Turchin served. The supply trains were in the rear on the Dry Valley Road. After Longstreets Break Through, the rear wasn't the rear anymore. So the trains were part of the Escaping Mob of the rout. Some wagons broke down, road got jammed up. Some wagon masters wanted to pull the pins on the wagons, releasing the mules, in order to escape on the animals leaving the wagons behind. Nadine was a Princess and felt no need to learn English because she had no desire to converse with her low class new countrymen. So, she used sign language. She pull out a Pistol from her waist band and convinced others pulling the pins was a bad idea. So, she saved much of the 14th Corps supply train.

 

[Copperhead-mi]

Shiloh was in April, sack of Athens in May, mid year Lincoln proclaims the EP. Suspect Shiloh had a lot to do with the Turn to Hard. But during this period along with Braggs invasion of KY, it happened.

Nadine became one of the Heroes at Chickamauga. She was on one of the wagons that supplied the 14th Corps. Thomas's Corps which Turchin served. The supply trains were in the rear on the Dry Valley Road. After Longstreets Break Through, the rear wasn't the rear anymore. So the trains were part of the Escaping Mob of the rout. Some wagons broke down, road got jammed up. Some wagon masters wanted to pull the pins on the wagons, releasing the mules, in order to escape on the animals leaving the wagons behind. Nadine was a Princess and felt no need to learn English because she had no desire to converse with her low class new countrymen. So, she used sign language. She pull out a Pistol from her waist band and convinced others pulling the pins was a bad idea. So, she saved much of the 14th Corps supply train.

Known as Madame Turchin to most of the troops she was around.