French troops

[Elennsar]

Thanks.

Judging by Butler's communications in August, nothing that would increase it between that and September - at least not significantly.

 

[leftyhunter]

The numbers are :

British took or destroyed 34 US warships, 278 privateers and 1,248 US merchantmen

USN took or destroyed 16 RN warships and 172 merchants; US privateers took 1,441 merchantmen. Of the merchants ca. 30% were immediately recaptured by the RN and never made a US port.

The American offensive against British shipping was ineffective, taking only about 5% of the entire UK merchant marine during the course of the war, and seeing a massive increase in British shipping due to captures of US shipping being greater than the loss rate and the reflagging of US ships to the UK.

In 1861 the French Navy is massively greater than the USN. Remember that privateering is out, the Treaty of Paris means all privateers will be hung as pirates rather than treated as PoWs. The USN needs to send regular warships and isn't likely to have more than it had OTL. The French as of ca. 1860 had:

9 screw ironclad batteries
14 fast screw battleships + 25 converted screw battleships
7 fast screw frigates + 12 converted screw frigates
10 fast screw corvettes + 2 converted
24 fast screw avisos (sloops) + 3 converted
28 screw gunboats and gunvessels

19 paddle frigates
9 paddle corvettes
50 paddle avisos
14 paddle tenders (general purchased ships carrying mortars)

13 sailing battleships (all effective and awaiting conversion to screw, but this was cancelled due to the armoured frigates)
40 sailing frigates (12 converted to screw before 1862)
18 sailing corvettes

They of course had added 6 armoured frigates and a few other ships.

The USN on 31st December 1862 has:

2 Ironclads (New Ironsides and Galena)
4 Large Screw Frigates
3 Small Screw Frigates (Corvettes in French terms)

3 Sidewheel Frigates
13 Steam Sloops (no attempt to separate out any sidewheelers)
3 Sail Frigates
11 Sail Sloops
4 Sail Brigs
30 Transports
9 Schooners
19 Mortar Schooners
3 Barks
2 Yachts

8 River Steamers
4 Ocean Steamers

40 Gunboats
47 Auxiliary Gunboats
58 Transport Steamers altered to Gunboats

The USN is massively outclassed by the French Navy. It's difficult to see any US steamer operating away from the US as they won't be able to resupply.

Good research. Of course has time go's by the USN will only get bigger. The CSA Navy did a good job of commerce Navy with only a few ships perhaps the larger USN could do better. The CSA can't feed its troops that is one reason Lee went to Gettysburg. How can the French reliably feed and even if they can land food reliably transport it to their troops?
I suppose in theory the French could help the CSA win but why would French parents want to see their sons fight for the CSA? What if the Union swelled with more soldiers and sailors due to the French involvement swarm to the colors and then size all the CSA ports? Its hard to predict how a war will turn out . The UK was stronger then the USA in 1812 and failed. The CSA was weaker then the USA and the CSA also failed we have failed in wars much later. Predicting the future of war is a tricky business at best.
Leftyhunter

 

[Elennsar]

How do we define "a good job" at something like commerce raiding, incidentally?

I think we need to set a standard of what would be sufficient to matter before determining if commerce raiding was ever as effective as feared.

Personally I think the main thing is that while an all out effort by France is a lot to deal with, the odds of such an effort are negligible to say the least - it wouldn't be cheap for France and it wouldn't be worth much for France.

 

[28thNewYork]

The food would definitely have been better...

 

[CanadianCanuck]

How do we define "a good job" at something like commerce raiding, incidentally?

I think we need to set a standard of what would be sufficient to matter before determining if commerce raiding was ever as effective as feared.

I don't think a war between major powers has ever had commerce raiding as an effective deterrent, a massive annoyance to be sure, but not an effective deterrent.

Either the commerce raiding was adopted by one power as a method of asymmetrical warfare (both US examples from 1776 and 1812 failed, and the Confederate attempts failed too) or by a superior one to crush the other sides sea-going trade.

Personally I think the main thing is that while an all out effort by France is a lot to deal with, the odds of such an effort are negligible to say the least - it wouldn't be cheap for France and it wouldn't be worth much for France.

Without British involvement (say Britain legitimizing Napoleon's Mexican adventure) Napoleon would be unlikely to move. But if it was a unilateral movement, the Union is well and truly screwed.

 

[peteanddelmar]

But if it was a unilateral movement, the Union is well and truly screwed.

Do you mean a British effort to fight against the Union?

 

[CanadianCanuck]

Do you mean a British effort to fight against the Union?

No I mean if France was to intervene it would only be if the British did too, and that would be a war which would be really unfair for the Union. Fighting the two dominant powers of the day is generally a losing proposition.