French troops

[major bill]

I have always wondered if the French had intervened on the side of the Confederacy if they would have been a game breaker. I think the French would not have done so without the British doing so, but what aid could they have provided? I will leave the French Navy to someone more schooled on naval matter than I and concentrate on the ground forces. Let us assume the French did not intervened in Mexico and sent the forces to the Confederacy. So we are talking about a maximum of 38,000 troops.

Infantry
7th, 51st, 62nd, 81st, 95th and 99th Line Regiments.
1st, 7th, 18th and 20th Chasseur a pied battalions
1st, 2nd, and 3rd Zouave Regiments

Cavalry
5th Hussars (only 2 squadrons)
12th Chaseurs a cheval (4 squadrons)
Part of 1st, 2nd, 3rd Chasseur d'Afrique (only 7 squadrons)

Artillery
3 Field artillery batteries
1 guard battery
1 siege battery
1 mountain battery

Colonial Troops
Tirailleurs alegeiens (2 companies from 3 regiments) (it is questionable if these troops would have been accepted by the Confederacy due to them being Arab Africans from Algeria)
2nd Battalion Infantere legere d'Afrique
Martinique Volunteers (probably not sent because of their race)
1st Regiment Etranger (Foreign Legion)

Naval ground troops
1 Marine Regiment
1 battalion of sailors
1 battery of Marine Artillery

The French Army arrived from March 1862 through October 1862. The Confederates could have used the extra 38,000 troops, but they might have not been available until the summer and fall of 1862.Is this enough forces to change the outcome of the war?

 

[Elennsar]

Maybe if they were involved as part of something like oh, Lee's desired Army in Effigy in the Gettysburg campaign (which would not be at all effigy with 38,000 French troops + whatever Confederates), but two things strike me:

1) In the field, how are they being supplied? As far as wagons and so on go. France can dump stuff on any port it can, but actually hauling it to the grunts still is at the mercy of the weak Confederate transportation system.

2) That really isn't a lot of artillery. Not sure how much that siege battery would count for, or how one on one the others compare to those fighting in the ACW, but it doesn't seem like it would add much.

There's a variety of things like quality of drill and weapons that may be in their favor, but "38,000 more troops that happen to be French" has to be at the right place and the right time, and I'm not sure what is the best time and place.

 

[NedBaldwin]

The French might have been able to retake New Orleans and capture Butler's command and then help Pemberton keep Grant from Vicksburg. That could have changed the outcome of the war.

 

[major bill]

The Spanish might have had to allow the French to use ports in Cuba.

 

[Elennsar]

The French might have been able to retake New Orleans and capture Butler's command and then help Pemberton keep Grant from Vicksburg. That could have changed the outcome of the war.

That might work. Although one wonders what would change on the Union angle in regards to a situation where there are 38,000 French troops in the area/being sent there before saying it would be a definite done thing.

True of anything, just that I think the Western theater for the Union at this time is less manpower strapped than the East.

 

[major bill]

Most battles in the western theater could have used the extra French troops. The French troops would have been reasonably well trained and well armed. The Confederacy may have had some problems proving mules, horses and wagons for the extra troops to use. I believe if the Confederacy would have had 38,000 more troops in 1861 or in the spring of 1862 it would have made a difference. The extra troops would have, in my opinion, less of an impact in late 1862 or beyond. By that time the Union may have been able to increase their army to match the extra French troops.

 

[Elennsar]

But its not as if the Union is going to ignore that there are an extra 38,000 troops to deal with, so whether you could have them (having essentially been unknown) on say April 6 to good effect doesn't seem a fair way to measure what effect they would have if the Union knew of them as much as it knew of Confederate forces in general.

 

[NedBaldwin]

That might work. Although one wonders what would change on the Union angle in regards to a situation where there are 38,000 French troops in the area/being sent there before saying it would be a definite done thing.

The French troops sailed through the Gulf to get to Mexico. What if they had made a surprise landing in Louisiana--would the US have had much time to react? In the fall of 1862, US had less than 15,000 on the gulf coast.

France had a good sized navy -- so the bigger question to me is would the French bring in their navy to keep the US away from the Gulf Coast.

 

[major bill]

To do any of this the French would have had to abandoned their landing in Mexico to support the British and Spanish. I am not sure how the British and Spanish woudl have reacted, but they probably had the forces to conduct the mission by themselves without French help.

 

[Elennsar]

The French troops sailed through the Gulf to get to Mexico. What if they had made a surprise landing in Louisiana--would the US have had much time to react? In the fall of 1862, US had less than 15,000 on the gulf coast.

France had a good sized navy -- so the bigger question to me is would the French bring in their navy to keep the US away from the Gulf Coast.

How long is that landing going to stay a surprise? The US is going to find out this is happening and move forces in response (not necessarily "with success" - just that it will have effects), it won't stay "OTL except with Frenchmen attacking." for very long, IMO.

 

[NedBaldwin]

How long is that landing going to stay a surprise? The US is going to find out this is happening and move forces in response (not necessarily "with success" - just that it will have effects), it won't stay "OTL except with Frenchmen attacking." for very long, IMO.

To you, what does "move forces in response" look like?

 

[Elennsar]

Where are the French landing and when? How fast are they moving once they hit the ground?

I suspect the initial response is going to be "concentrate what is on the Gulf", followed by reinforcements if and as available from wherever is best positioned to send them - I'd want to check Grant's department as of this time first, if you want me to start pulling figures (outside the Gulf).

 

[AndyHall]

Operating from Havana, the French could make a lot of trouble for Federal bases at Key West and Pensacola. A landing of French troops in Florida wouldn't be necessary or especially useful.

The argument against French intervention, of course, was the British Royal Navy, which historically took the French as its primary likely opponent. Any scenario that involves French intervention on the side of the Confederacy must also factor in how the British would likely respond.

 

[NedBaldwin]

Where are the French landing and when? How fast are they moving once they hit the ground?

Somewhere near New Orleans. Lets say they move as fast as McClellan landing at the end of the Peninsula.

I suspect the initial response is going to be "concentrate what is on the Gulf", followed by reinforcements if and as available from wherever is best positioned to send them - I'd want to check Grant's department as of this time first, if you want me to start pulling figures (outside the Gulf).

Great. How are any reinforcements going to get to the Gulf in September-October 1862?

 

[Elennsar]

Great. How are any reinforcements going to get to the Gulf in September-October 1862?

Probably by water. Something like how Grant got across the Mississippi to Vicksburg may or may not be necessary, along with things like this (Its November, but there weren't any reinforcements available to send in September, at least by the standards applied historically, so I'm looking for the nearest messages actually sending anyone):

http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moawar&cc=moawar&idno=waro0021&q1=Department of the gulf&view=image&seq=604&size=100


I'm going to admit I think it would be a pain and then some if the French really want to make a point of New Orleans, but I think that in and of itself isn't going to do much good.

38,000 men and a squadron tied down in New Orleans secures it for sure, and its a city worth holding - but its not going to upset the rest of the Union war effort on its own.

And that part is where I think the Union response can probably matter. I don't see New Orleans being something that will inevitably resist being attacked (I don't have a return for the Department of the Gulf for this time period), and on looking things over I'm not sure reinforcements can be quickly rushed - but I think the basic "Okay, it happened. Now we respond." can be done with the forces that could be made available if it was worth it.

 

[NedBaldwin]

Probably by water. Something like how Grant got across the Mississippi to Vicksburg

So somebody up river is going to run the Vicksburg batteries in October 1862?

there weren't any reinforcements available to send in September

Exactly. It was going to be difficult to react to the French in September-October 1862, with everything else going on.

http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/c...tment of the gulf&view=image&seq=604&size=100

This is the order directing Banks to take command of a force of about 20K that would leave by ship from New York and sail around Florida to New Orleans. The troops for this had been assembling in the northeast since at least October if not earlier; the flotilla wouldn't get underway until early December; and would take a couple weeks to get there. This force did not have to face a hostile navy during its journey and New Orleans was held by US forces when it got there. Its going to be very different if the French were in Louisiana in September-October.

 

[Elennsar]

So somebody up river is going to run the Vicksburg batteries in October 1862?

I notice you clipped the "may or may not be necessary" part, which was my confession that I don't know if that would be required to make this movement (which isn't the same as the one to take Vicksburg) or not. Are you saying that it would be necessary to do that to move these?

Exactly. It was going to be difficult to react to the French in September-October 1862, with everything else going on.

But the Union does not need to have the response be in September-October 1862. The war is not going to end because the response comes two months after the French land instead of two weeks.

Sure, I think my initial assumption was erring optimistically - but I think that the Union can afford to do this in a more methodical fashion. The French are not going to win the war for the CSA by staying in New Orleans.

The message on "no available reinforcements", if you care: http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/c...tment+of+the+gulf&view=image&seq=558&size=100

I suspect 38,000 French troops are a powerful argument for concentrating differently than OTL.

This is the order directing Banks to take command of a force of about 20K that would leave by ship from New York and sail around Florida to New Orleans. The troops for this had been assembling in the northeast since at least October if not earlier; the flotilla wouldn't get underway until early December; and would take a couple weeks to get there. This force did not have to face a hostile navy during its journey and New Orleans was held by US forces when it got there. Its going to be very different if the French were in Louisiana in September-October.

Sure it is. But you asked how they're getting there - this route is still available unless the French are able to interfere, and we don't have enough on the naval side to know how much naval firepower is involved.

 

[NedBaldwin]

I notice you clipped the "may or may not be necessary" part, which was my confession that I don't know if that would be required to make this movement (which isn't the same as the one to take Vicksburg) or not. Are you saying that it would be necessary to do that to move these?

I didnt understand the "may or may not be necessary" part. Grant spend months trying to figure out how to get past Vicksburg. Prior to that he didnt have the ability to just send reinforcements to New Orleans. If the Confederates no longer had to man Port Hudson and/or had the support of say a French division, it would make getting around Vicksburg that much harder.

 

[Elennsar]

Grant spent months trying to figure that out because he had to take Vicksburg. Operations that can skip/delay that and focus on moving south just need to go southward, which may or may not require going through the part of the Mississippi the guns at Vicksburg controls at all.

In other words, can Vicksburg just be bypassed here? That I don't know enough to be sure about.

 

[leftyhunter]

I have always wondered if the French had intervened on the side of the Confederacy if they would have been a game breaker. I think the French would not have done so without the British doing so, but what aid could they have provided? I will leave the French Navy to someone more schooled on naval matter than I and concentrate on the ground forces. Let us assume the French did not intervened in Mexico and sent the forces to the Confederacy. So we are talking about a maximum of 38,000 troops.

Infantry
7th, 51st, 62nd, 81st, 95th and 99th Line Regiments.
1st, 7th, 18th and 20th Chasseur a pied battalions
1st, 2nd, and 3rd Zouave Regiments

Cavalry
5th Hussars (only 2 squadrons)
12th Chaseurs a cheval (4 squadrons)
Part of 1st, 2nd, 3rd Chasseur d'Afrique (only 7 squadrons)

Artillery
3 Field artillery batteries
1 guard battery
1 siege battery
1 mountain battery

Colonial Troops
Tirailleurs alegeiens (2 companies from 3 regiments) (it is questionable if these troops would have been accepted by the Confederacy due to them being Arab Africans from Algeria)
2nd Battalion Infantere legere d'Afrique
Martinique Volunteers (probably not sent because of their race)
1st Regiment Etranger (Foreign Legion)

Naval ground troops
1 Marine Regiment
1 battalion of sailors
1 battery of Marine Artillery

The French Army arrived from March 1862 through October 1862. The Confederates could have used the extra 38,000 troops, but they might have not been available until the summer and fall of 1862.Is this enough forces to change the outcome of the war?

Would 38k French troops inspire perhaps more Americans to join the Union Army? Would the Union be able to pay bounties to the African troops to desert? Would the French people wish send their sons to fight on behalf of slave owners? Could the Union pay say 20k or so Mexicans to join the Union Army to get more manpower? France needs wheat that the Ukraine can not supply so fighting the Union is a problem. The USN can raid French commerce just has they effectively did the UK with a more primitive navy in 1812.
Leftyhunter