Forrest

[diane]

This is true. Praise from an adversary pretty much says it all. In the Spanish American War Forrest pondered raising a unit to fight in Cuba and Sherman endorsed his idea. I know Wheeler fought there along with one of the Lee's but Forrest never made it to Cuba to my knowledge.

You're probably thinking of the Virginius Incident in 1873, where we almost went to war with Spain during the Cuban insurrection. Sherman was on the military board processing volunteers for possible service when Forrest's application floated by. Sherman gave it an enthusiastic hell-yeah! Didn't know he planned to raise an outfit but that would have been a double hell-yeah from Sherman - Forrest's vets were some of the best soldiers in the country.

 

[Nathanb1]

It was during a seance.

Frankly, I wouldn't put it past him.

 

[Lee]

I stand corrected..........at least about the wanting to raise a unit part anyway........

 

[Lee]

You're probably thinking of the Virginius Incident in 1873, where we almost went to war with Spain during the Cuban insurrection. Sherman was on the military board processing volunteers for possible service when Forrest's application floated by. Sherman gave it an enthusiastic hell-yeah! Didn't know he planned to raise an outfit but that would have been a double hell-yeah from Sherman - Forrest's vets were some of the best soldiers in the country.

Thanks Diane I am begining to trust my less than perfect memory less every year. That must have been what I read about and confused it with the 1890s war with Spain.

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

By the way, regarding my comments about Forrest possibly not succeeding at higher command levels... it's really arguable either way. For an example of a non-professional who was still effective at a higher level (albeit not the highest level), there's Richard Taylor, whose military experience prior to being commissioned a colonel was as military secretary to his father during the Mexican War and for a short time to Braxton Bragg at the outset of the Civil War. So some outstanding individuals could make the transition successfully.

 

[diane]

By the way, regarding my comments about Forrest possibly not succeeding at higher command levels... it's really arguable either way. For an example of a non-professional who was still effective at a higher level (albeit not the highest level), there's Richard Taylor, whose military experience prior to being commissioned a colonel was as military secretary to his father during the Mexican War and for a short time to Braxton Bragg at the outset of the Civil War. So some outstanding individuals could make the transition successfully.

We have to note, too, that some of the war's most outstanding failures were professionals from West Point! Forrest had absolutely no respect for West Pointers and told Wilson's aide, after Selma, "I never rubbed my back up against no college." And, later, to a friend, "Whenever I fit one of them West Point fellers, I generally had him whipped before he got his tune pitched." No brag, just fact! Forrest had, like others, a wide range of education and experience not taught in any school. Again, I still think the matter of being planters before the war is an overlooked element in the success of these 'unschooled' men. Taylor was one as well.

One curious thing - after the war Forrest was approached by some persons who wanted to restore the Confederacy, only in Mexico. Forrest toyed with the idea and then discarded it, but he did toy with it long enough to suggest a vague plan. He'd round up around 30,000 Confederate vets, the toughest survivors, ride down to Mexico and overthrow Maximilian, then install himself as El Presidente - total emperor until the Mexicans got a democracy up and running. Then he'd step aside. (He didn't mention Britain, France, or any other world power interfering.) Of course, this was a major brain squeeze born of the various difficulties after the war in Tennessee but it's kind of funny to think this particular general just might have pulled that hare-brained scheme off!

 

[Lee]

We have to note, too, that some of the war's most outstanding failures were professionals from West Point! Forrest had absolutely no respect for West Pointers and told Wilson's aide, after Selma, "I never rubbed my back up against no college." And, later, to a friend, "Whenever I fit one of them West Point fellers, I generally had him whipped before he got his tune pitched." No brag, just fact! Forrest had, like others, a wide range of education and experience not taught in any school. Again, I still think the matter of being planters before the war is an overlooked element in the success of these 'unschooled' men. Taylor was one as well.

One curious thing - after the war Forrest was approached by some persons who wanted to restore the Confederacy, only in Mexico. Forrest toyed with the idea and then discarded it, but he did toy with it long enough to suggest a vague plan. He'd round up around 30,000 Confederate vets, the toughest survivors, ride down to Mexico and overthrow Maximilian, then install himself as El Presidente - total emperor until the Mexicans got a democracy up and running. Then he'd step aside. (He didn't mention Britain, France, or any other world power interfering.) Of course, this was a major brain squeeze born of the various difficulties after the war in Tennessee but it's kind of funny to think this particular general just might have pulled that hare-brained scheme off!

Diane you and Mark make excellent points in that many people succeed simply because they are not convinced they can not! I am sure everyone here is aware of the Peter Principal that states many individuals are promoted or rise to a level where they discover and display incompetence. We also have examples of individuals who rise high and go far simply because they possess the gifts, the inner will, and the drive to do so. West Point produced many highly effective successfull officers for both sides at the same time some West Point graduates found themselves lacking when standing next to a Forrest, Gordon, Chamberlain, and others.

Personally I do not believe Forrests gifts would necessarily transfer effectively to commanding a large army but I will readily admit I could very well be "completely wrong about that." One quality Forrest had in abundance was the ability to surprise those who underestimated him.

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

If anything, Forrest seems to have been a fast learner, formal education or no. I'd think it'd be risky to bet against him.

 

[diane]

If anything, Forrest seems to have been a fast learner, formal education or no. I'd think it'd be risky to bet against him.

That is quite true. Forrest had a lot of little gimmicks semi-illiterate folks use to hide it, like having a clerk write out his reports (got no time!) and then read them back to him so he could 'get the pitch' (slow reader!) But he was a quick study. He loved artillery and one day his artillery captain told him he needed to use his trigonometry and geometry to get better results. Forrest blinked and said, "Never heard of them. What is it?" A little embarrassed the captain explained it was mathematics. So, the general had him come by his tent with a math book. After a frustratingly poor start Forrest finally said, "Here is how you teach me. Tell me clearly what it is, what it is good for, and how to do it. I will learn." So, the captain did his best to do that and left Forrest fiddling with a set of problems. After a time he returned, expecting to find the book in the woodstove or something, but Forrest was still working on it. To the captain's immense surprise, he had not only completed the set he'd been given but had gone on for several pages into much more advanced work - and most of it was correct! The captain couldn't help but praise him and Forrest, for once in his life, blushed a little. "Well, it is kinda fun," he said sheepishly.

 

[Nathanb1]

I stand corrected..........at least about the wanting to raise a unit part anyway........

Sorry, couldn't resist. I do wonder if--knowing Wheeler was there--he would have agreed to go. Bad mojo between those two! However, it's tempting to imagine both of 'em going up San Juan (or whichever) Hill yelling, "We've got the **** Yankees on the run, boys!"......LOL

 

[TerryB]

Sorry, couldn't resist. I do wonder if--knowing Wheeler was there--he would have agreed to go. Bad mojo between those two! However, it's tempting to imagine both of 'em going up San Juan (or whichever) Hill yelling, "We've got the **** Yankees on the run, boys!"......LOL

Forrest would have already been there. "What kept you boys?"

 

[Lee]

That is quite true. Forrest had a lot of little gimmicks semi-illiterate folks use to hide it, like having a clerk write out his reports (got no time!) and then read them back to him so he could 'get the pitch' (slow reader!) But he was a quick study. He loved artillery and one day his artillery captain told him he needed to use his trigonometry and geometry to get better results. Forrest blinked and said, "Never heard of them. What is it?" A little embarrassed the captain explained it was mathematics. So, the general had him come by his tent with a math book. After a frustratingly poor start Forrest finally said, "Here is how you teach me. Tell me clearly what it is, what it is good for, and how to do it. I will learn." So, the captain did his best to do that and left Forrest fiddling with a set of problems. After a time he returned, expecting to find the book in the woodstove or something, but Forrest was still working on it. To the captain's immense surprise, he had not only completed the set he'd been given but had gone on for several pages into much more advanced work - and most of it was correct! The captain couldn't help but praise him and Forrest, for once in his life, blushed a little. "Well, it is kinda fun," he said sheepishly.

That doesn't surprise me Diane. I read in the final installment of Shelby Foot's trilogy about a raid where Forrest would have been the envy of Confederate Naval Officers in that he and his men captured and sank gunboats and transports and his artillery destroyed a huge Federal supply depot. Forrest was working within the battery and he enjoyed yanking the lanyard and taking note of the accuracy. Forrest was said to have ordered the crew working one piece to "elevate that gun lower" which is another example of a semi-literate contradiction however the gunners knew exactly what he wanted and they lowered the elevation of the artillery piece. Forrest was definitely a very intelligent man but not a highly educated one. That Forrest could work geometry and trig problems tells me he was a very quick study and NOT dyslexic which is sometimes the case for some folks who seem otherwise quite intelligent and capable but they struggle to read.

 

[diane]

That doesn't surprise me Diane. I read in the final installment of Shelby Foot's trilogy about a raid where Forrest would have been the envy of Confederate Naval Officers in that he and his men captured and sank gunboats and transports and his artillery destroyed a huge Federal supply depot. Forrest was working within the battery and he enjoyed yanking the lanyard and taking note of the accuracy. Forrest was said to have ordered the crew working one piece to "elevate that gun lower" which is another example of a semi-literate contradiction however the gunners knew exactly what he wanted and they lowered the elevation of the artillery piece. Forrest was definitely a very intelligent man but not a highly educated one. That Forrest could work geometry and trig problems tells me he was a very quick study and NOT dyslexic which is sometimes the case for some folks who seem otherwise quite intelligent and capable but they struggle to read.

Forrest wasn't dyslexic just uneducated. His family was just about the first people into the Indian cessions that opened up middle Tennessee and school just wasn't in session most of the time. When it was, it was a 30 mile trip - one way - and usually held in the dead of winter, November to February or so. That was so the kids would be free for farming. So, Forrest managed 3 months - he thought maybe 6 - and that was it. But his family saw to it he could read and write and figure - they were not totally uneducated folks! When he started getting a little money into his pockets, he saw to it that his brothers got some sort of education that was better than his, and he was very proud that he was able to put his baby brother into college. Jeffery Forrest was more like a son than a brother - he was born after their father died and Forrest was 16. His loss at Okolona was very hard on his older brother.

 

[whitworth]

Forrest rose in esteem after the defeat of the Confederacy. Never did he rise so high in the esteem of the Confederate government during the war.

 

[Yankeedave]

Couple of things and no disrespect intended, Sherman was no Grant, but Grant was no Sherman. From a man in 11-Bravo (at one time) i prefer Sherman. Stuart did command an army corps but it was straight ahead tactics. Had Meade had his way, him and Reynolds would have tried to roll down Stuarts flank at Chancellorsville. Forrest and others are what made the war seem unwinable at times. Forrest is the reason by g-g-grandfather say all i did in the war was guard Sherman's railroads.

 

[Roland]

Forrest rose in esteem after the defeat of the Confederacy. Never did he rise so high in the esteem of the Confederate government during the war.

Forrest enlisted in the Confederate army as a private in 1861. He was promoted to brigadeir general 21 July 1862, major general 4 dec 1863 and by the war's end was a lietenant general.

 

[diane]

Forrest rose in esteem after the defeat of the Confederacy. Never did he rise so high in the esteem of the Confederate government during the war.

And that's too bad! Unfortunately, Bragg's opinions of Forrest and Davis' own prejudice against non-West Pointers kept that esteem too low. It wasn't until after Forrest's death that Davis said he had gravely underestimated the cavalryman. Forrest had submitted a plan to him to recapture a good deal of the Mississippi - Davis had just stuck it in a desk drawer without looking at it. Later, he said he much regretted having done that. When he looked at it after the war was lost, he saw it was a very good plan and just might have worked! He sat with Forrest at his death and attended his funeral.

 

[Lee]

And that's too bad! Unfortunately, Bragg's opinions of Forrest and Davis' own prejudice against non-West Pointers kept that esteem too low. It wasn't until after Forrest's death that Davis said he had gravely underestimated the cavalryman. Forrest had submitted a plan to him to recapture a good deal of the Mississippi - Davis had just stuck it in a desk drawer without looking at it. Later, he said he much regretted having done that. When he looked at it after the war was lost, he saw it was a very good plan and just might have worked! He sat with Forrest at his death and attended his funeral.

I do remember reading about a plan Forrest submitted to Davis but the source/book didn't delve into the specifics. Yes Davis highly favored West Pointers to a fault and Bragg was a nightmare.

 

[diane]

I do remember reading about a plan Forrest submitted to Davis but the source/book didn't delve into the specifics. Yes Davis highly favored West Pointers to a fault and Bragg was a nightmare.

I'm a little foggy on his plan, too, at the moment but will try to find my sources on it. He planned to use a couple thousand handpicked men who were born and raised in the area - had support with family and friends. It was not exactly a guerrilla operation but very close - quite unique, really! Using this kind of a force, he just might have been able to accomplish something interesting.

 

[Lee]

I'm a little foggy on his plan, too, at the moment but will try to find my sources on it. He planned to use a couple thousand handpicked men who were born and raised in the area - had support with family and friends. It was not exactly a guerrilla operation but very close - quite unique, really! Using this kind of a force, he just might have been able to accomplish something interesting.

If you find more about it please post it here. Thanks in advance Diane.