Custer Forrest or Custer

[cash]

I'm not going to write a thesis on Forrest to prove a point on an internet forum. I can just say that the term Forrest's cavalry is a term so common in History books that I cannot imagine anyone disputing whether or not Forest was a cavalry leader. I also have no proof that Erwin Rommel studied Forrest but I can say you and I have read some of the same books.
I think most war colleges study Forrest, or should, but I haven ever been to a war college either.
As for Custer, he was a dashing aggressive cavalry leader. Not the brightest light in the house but he certainly had great courage.

You're not going to find a war college class specifically on Forrest. You may find one or at the very most two of his battles discussed as a part of a larger class, but they will be mixed in with battles led by other generals. They just don't have the time to waste on studying one man in depth, unless that man is Napoleon. You can find a class on the Civil War, in which they'll invest a day on Lee and a day on Grant, but after those two the rest of the generals get mentioned along with some selected battles, but not a whole lot else.

Just because a lot of people call Forrest a cavalry leader doesn't make him a cavalry leader. It just makes a lot of people mistaken.

There are those who also claim Rommel secretly came to the United States to look at Forrest's battlefields. That comes from the same novel.

 

[diane]

I don't think there can be a dispute that Forrest was a cavalry commander - those forces under his command were designated cavalry. However, where the definition comes in is how he used those forces. The battle of Sacramento was the first real battle Forrest led and his use of his troops was unorthodox, and set the pattern for the rest of his military career.

 

[12th Missouri Yankee]

Welcome from New York. The Forrest forum is an interesting and great thread to visit here on CWT.

 

[cash]

I don't think there can be a dispute that Forrest was a cavalry commander - those forces under his command were designated cavalry. However, where the definition comes in is how he used those forces. The battle of Sacramento was the first real battle Forrest led and his use of his troops was unorthodox, and set the pattern for the rest of his military career.

Does Richard Ewell become a cavalry commander when dismounted cavalry is placed under his command?

I argue Forrest was a mounted infantry commander because that's the way he fought. I also say Sheridan wanted to be more of a mounted infantry commander because in my view that's what he wanted the Army of the Potomac's cavalry to become. In my opinion that is a more satisfactory reason for bringing Alfred T. A. Torbert to the cavalry beyond the fact the two men were friends. I see Sheridan wanting to infuse more infantry tactics into the operation of the AotP cavalry corps. He wasn't fully successful in doing that, but he did succeed in making the cavalry more of a strike force.

What I find to be a semi-interesting question is whether or not Sheridan was influenced by Forrest.

 

[Will Carry]

It just semantics. The Civil War saw changes in how cavalry were used. Forrest preferred to fight dismounted to protect his precious mounts and to better utilize his weapons. I can see how you might coin the term "mounted infantry" yet still, the term "dismounted cavalry" is also correct.
"Was Sheridan influenced by Forrest" sounds like a very interesting topic.

 

[cash]

It just semantics. The Civil War saw changes in how cavalry were used. Forrest preferred to fight dismounted to protect his precious mounts and to better utilize his weapons. I can see how you might coin the term "mounted infantry" yet still, the term "dismounted cavalry" is also correct.

Semantics: "the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning."

If we're talking about the meaning of what "cavalry" is, then semantics is all important. Take out the word "just" and we agree. It's been semantics from the beginning, and the meaning of cavalry is the core of the question. We can't say Forrest was a cavalry commander if he doesn't fit the meaning of what a cavalry commander is.

"Was Sheridan influenced by Forrest" sounds like a very interesting topic.

It seems to me we could probably dispatch it relatively quickly, in which case the interest would fade and a hypothetical thread on such a topic would soon move onto other things. It would be interesting to consider at first, though, which is why I would call it "semi-interesting."

 

[diane]

At Gettysburg, John Buford's troops dismounted to fight Confederate infantry, but they were still cavalry. John Wilder was probably the closest to Forrest as far as what his troops really were and...well, they were mounted infantry. Ow...that hurt. BUT, Forrest did the traditional cavalry thing as well - that may be why many considered him to be more of a guerrilla than anything else.

 

[cash]

At Gettysburg, John Buford's troops dismounted to fight Confederate infantry, but they were still cavalry. John Wilder was probably the closest to Forrest as far as what his troops really were and...well, they were mounted infantry. Ow...that hurt. BUT, Forrest did the traditional cavalry thing as well - that may be why many considered him to be more of a guerrilla than anything else.

Buford continued to perform the role of cavalry, which Forrest did not do.

 

[Booner]

Well I am afraid you post has just added to the confusion. Is that guy out front Custer or Forrest?

No No No Forrest would be in the 'copter. Remember, "Get there firstest with the mostest" or something like that.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Remember, "Get there firstest with the mostest" or something like that.

There's been much debate as to whether or not Forrest actually spoke those words.

Most agree that Forrest lacked a formal education. However, conventional wisdom among many historians suggests that he tried very hard to blend within polite society of the day.

This may be of interest to some :

" Impact of Forrest's doctrines "

Forrest was one of the first men to grasp the doctrines of "mobile warfare" that became prevalent in the 20th century. His one directive to his men was to "get there firstest with the mostest".

(The "firstest ... mostest" quote, although an accurate description of his strategy, was not uttered in that form by Forrest. It was invented by a New York Times story in 1917, written to provide colorful comments in reaction to European interest in Civil War generals.)

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/chron/civilwarnotes/forrest.html

 

[diane]

There's been much debate as to whether or not Forrest actually spoke those words.

Most agree that Forrest lacked a formal education. However, conventional wisdom among many historians suggests that he tried very hard to blend within polite society of the day.

This may be of interest to some :

" Impact of Forrest's doctrines "

Forrest was one of the first men to grasp the doctrines of "mobile warfare" that became prevalent in the 20th century. His one directive to his men was to "get there firstest with the mostest".

(The "firstest ... mostest" quote, although an accurate description of his strategy, was not uttered in that form by Forrest. It was invented by a New York Times story in 1917, written to provide colorful comments in reaction to European interest in Civil War generals.)

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/chron/civilwarnotes/forrest.html

Forrest's famous military maxim was polished and colloquial at the same time - the way he generally spoke! He was chatting with John Hunt Morgan, who was greatly impressed with the first Murfreesboro raid and was picking Forrest's brain. How did you get in there in the first place - it was surrounded by Union troops! "Oh," replied Forrest, "I just took the short cut and got there first with the most men." This was reported by Basil Duke. The other version, "I make it a rule to get there first with the most men" was reported later by Richard Taylor. (We must remember Taylor also reported Jackson always sucked on a lemon...when in fact it was more likely to be a peach...!)

 

[Borderruffian]

Who was a better cavalry commander

Huh? You realize of course that Custer was an actual cavalryman right? While NBF commanded a unit that he mostly fought on foot much akin to mounted rifles and dragoons. mostly armed with Enfields as well as revolvers. In fact the only unit really armed as traditional horse soldiers were his escort drawn from his old regiment who by 1863-64 were outfittrd with Sharps carabines and also had earlier obtained sabers.
Audie Custer fought as a cavalryman NFBfought as a brawler, that is to say NFB fought all in and did well, using mounted movements and raids.

Of the two MHO is that the Wizard of the Saddle was the better commander Your mileage may vary.

 

[GlenAlan Graham]

Jobe, watch your spelling - welcome to the forums anyway!

James, watch YOUR spelling! The word you spell, "calvary", is from the Latin name of the place where Jesus was crucified. The word for military on horse is "cavalry".

 

[GlenAlan Graham]

Sorry about the spelling error, my phone has a correct problem. And thank you for having me.

Don't worry. You had it correct when you spelled "cavalry".

 

[GlenAlan Graham]

Easy choice: Forrest was better. At least once, when he was surrounded by those Yankees he still beat them. As for Custer, he rode right into a Dakota trap and got himself and his men massacred!

 

[Bee]

James, watch YOUR spelling! The word you spell, "calvary", is from the Latin name of the place where Jesus was crucified. The word for military on horse is "cavalry".

You are late to the party, Mr. Graham. If you look closely, you will note that Jobe edited his post. Originally, he had written "calvary". James caught the error.

 

[Carronade]

Forrest was daring and aggressive, but knew how far he could push it and when it was time to back off and fight another day.

Custer had many successes to his credit, but as we used to say in the Navy, one "Ah $h1+!" wipes out a lot of "Attaboy!"s.

 

[Buckeye Bill]

Nathan......

 

[Reb]

Buford continued to perform the role of cavalry, which Forrest did not do.

What was the 1st battle of Murfreesboro? What was the 2nd battle of Memphis?

 

[James N.]

What was the 1st battle of Murfreesboro? What was the 2nd battle of Memphis?

Actually, cash is pretty much correct; the incidents you refer to are more properly raids rather than the actual function by cavalry as part of an army: screening and reconnaissance, of which Buford's action at Gettysburg is a perfect example. Either because Bragg or Joe Johnston didn't really understand how to properly employ their mounted arm, or rivalry between Forrest and Joe Wheeler prevented their cooperation, Forrest did relatively little in this regard and usually operated independently like on the raids you mention.