Enfield or Springfield

[Capt7thWvCoA]

Hello everyone, i was wondering which rifled muskets was the most well liked by union soldiers , the Enfield or the Springfield ? Personally as a reeanactor I like the springfield.

 

[UCVRelics]

I would say that in order for a yankee soldiers to make a judgement he would have to have used both, since there were more Springfields issued to yankee troops I would say Springfield. I have read accounts of yankee soldiers taking Enfields from captured weapons at Vicksburg.

 

[Craig L Barry]

Not to expand the discussion, but just to make the point clear... Among all Civil War-era soldiers on both sides, there is never a recorded incident of anyone discarding a US Model 1861 rifle musket and picking up an Enfield or anything else (unless the US model 1861 was damaged). There are plenty of examples of soldiers exchanging Enfields for US Model 1861s, for example; Cpl William Livermore's quote from Little Round Top at Gettysburg is enlightening. He wrote in his diary that anyone still with armed an Enfield was ordered to go onto the battlefield and exchange them for a Springfield (US model) and he noted "nearly everyone did so."

US Grant notes in his memoirs about soldiers exchanging obsolete Belgian smoothbore muskets for the newly captured CS Enfields after Vicksburg fell which of course were more modern arms...these were not Union soldiers equipped with US model rifle muskets.

 

[hrobalabama]

A few years back, Lee Emory on TV, compared P-53 and the 1861 Springfield. He compared the two rifles as to their weight, loading, and firing at a target. His conclusion: the P-54 was one pound lighter lighter, one inch shorter and accuracy as almost even, but the Enfield was the overall winner,

 

[Tom Elmore]

Here was a conscious choice made by the rest of the 15th New Jersey at Gettysburg after having observed Company B's weapons:

On the morning of July 4, the 15th New Jersey went out on the battlefield and exchanged the Enfields they had been carrying for Springfields. Left the Enfields stacked. Company B had previously exchanged theirs at Salem Heights. [Brother against Brother, Diary of Lt. Edmund Halsey, Company D, 15th New Jersey, p. 148]

In that same battle I have uncovered no recorded examples of soldiers exchanging Springfields for Enfields; but some other exchanges were made:

155th Pennsylvania received permission after the battle to replace old buck and ball muskets with Springfield rifles taken off the field. [Marshall, Company K]

A regiment in the brigade (Carr's) threw aside their Belgian rifles and selected those of the Springfield pattern from a stack of several thousand arms that had been collected upon the field. [Henry N. Blake, Three Years in the Army of the Potomac, 11th Massachusetts]

Went into the fight with smooth-bore muskets, exchanged for good Springfield rifles captured from the enemy. [Official Report of Lt. Col. Carpenter, 4th Ohio]

 

[Story]

Citing primary sources rocks.

 

[frontrank2]

I own a repro 1861 Springfield, a repro 1853 Enfield, and an original 61 Springfield ( as a wall hanger and parade gun only ). Ergonomically speaking, I prefer the repro Enfield over the repro Springfield. But the original Springfield is the most comfortable of all.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

To be fair to the P1853, I think there was a LOT of bias even in that day and age towards American made weapons like the M1861. North and South.

I don't remember how many times I've happened on reports in the OR's of how inferior Enfield's were and the officers begging for Springfield's.

Having shot both originals, and a lot more of the reproductions, I'd say they're pretty equal, and the only real advantage of the Springfield over the Enfield is parts interchangeability.

I'd bet money, that if the M1861 was never designed, and the army just had the M1855 as a standard mainstay, the same soldiers decrying they're Enfield's as junk would've been begging for the "superior" Springfield. They'd probably beg the same for the M1842 if the M1855 didn't exist.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

As a follow up, I've been reading Gibbon's Artillerist Manual, and in the chapter dedicated to small arms, it goes on a WILD attack on any rifle-musket not the Springfield! Making claims that Enfield and other's bullets tumble all over the place and are so inferior. It even has one diagram of a bullet similar to a modern cast Whitworth bullet claiming it'll tumble and never hit a thing. Even going so far as to show it mathematically impossible for it not to tumble.

It has all that, including a section on breechloaders, describing them as wonderful and well suited for horseback, and specialist troops, but that soldiers typically expend 30,000 bullets in battle and that's already too much. Also that repeating weapons have no place on a battlefield or even in this world.

With such trash as that flowing through the rank and file and among the officers, its pretty easy to get the idea that if it wasn't American it was trash. I know many gun people today who have the same mentality about foreign guns. Including several folks swearing an AK can't hit the broad side of a barn and is liable to blow up in your hands.

You could say same stupidity different era...

 

[Rhea Cole]

It is important to define what is meant by an Enfield. As has been covered in great detail on threads here, a lot of the CW rifles bearing the Enfield name were of very poor quality. In head to head tests, the Enfield came off a poor second to the Springfield. The high quality maintained by US arsenals during the war has also been covered numerous times.

The soldier's opinion of his Enfield ran from excellent to junk. There is no generic answer to the Enfield's identity.

 

[Craig L Barry]

There is another period quote where the promise of being issued US Model 1861 rifle muskets was used as an incentive for 90 day volunteers to reenlist. They were grumbling about turning in their US Model 1855s and then getting reissued Enfields. See the following:

Oct. 21st, 1861: Muskets were delivered to the men, and this furnished another excuse for a hearty growl from the 1st Mainers. "Had we not been promised a new blue uniform and Springfield muskets?" To be sure we had the blue uniform and a good outfit every way, "but look at these Enfield muskets," said they, "with their blued barrels and wood that no man can name!" They were not a bad weapon, however, differing little from the Springfield, in actual efficiency, weight, length, and caliber, but far behind in point of workmanship. For a while we kept them blued, then orders were issued to rub them bright and we kept them so ever after.

History of the First - Tenth - Twenty-ninth Maine Regiment:
By John Mead Gould

It is worth noting there was of course a degree of latent provincialism in terms of preference for the US Model 1861 rifle muskets and we are speaking solely of originals in the hands of US Civil War soldiers. In the modern era, the P53 reproductions are clearly favored for many very good reasons.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

There is another period quote where the promise of being issued US Model 1861 rifle muskets was used as an incentive for 90 day volunteers to reenlist. They were grumbling about turning in their US Model 1855s and then getting reissued Enfields. See the following:

Oct. 21st, 1861: Muskets were delivered to the men, and this furnished another excuse for a hearty growl from the 1st Mainers. "Had we not been promised a new blue uniform and Springfield muskets?" To be sure we had the blue uniform and a good outfit every way, "but look at these Enfield muskets," said they, "with their blued barrels and wood that no man can name!" They were not a bad weapon, however, differing little from the Springfield, in actual efficiency, weight, length, and caliber, but far behind in point of workmanship. For a while we kept them blued, then orders were issued to rub them bright and we kept them so ever after.

History of the First - Tenth - Twenty-ninth Maine Regiment:
By John Mead Gould

It is worth noting there was of course a degree of latent provincialism in terms of preference for the US Model 1861 rifle muskets and we are speaking solely of originals in the hands of US Civil War soldiers. In the modern era, the P53 reproductions are clearly favored for many very good reasons.

I've never understood why soldiers wanted those Enfield's bright. Give me a blued or browned gun any day.

After all its said that at night if you listen hard enough, you can hear a Springfield rusting.

But there are many folks at events out there that take quotes like that and swear EVERY Enfield got polished by all soldiers North and South.

 

[Llewellyn]

It's interesting to reflect on the fact that there was an "Enfield or Springfield" debate again in 1917. When the US entered WW1 the sudden requirement for millions of rifles led to the adoption of the Model of 1917 alongside the standard M1903. The M1917 was the British designed Pattern 1914 rechambered for the American .30-06 cartridge. American factories had already tooled up to produce the P1914 (cal .303 British) in response to British contracts and it was easier for them to churn out a rechambered rifle rather than retooling and retraining to produce the M1903.
The might of Winchester, Remington and the Eddystone Arsenals meant that production of the M1917, commonly referred to as "the Enfield", outstripped that of the M1903 Springfield and about 75% of the AEF in France were Enfield armed. Alvin York used an Enfield when he performed his 1918 heroics, though Hollywood put an M1903 in Gary Cooper's hands in that 1941 movie.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

It's interesting to reflect on the fact that there was an "Enfield or Springfield" debate again in 1917. When the US entered WW1 the sudden requirement for millions of rifles led to the adoption of the Model of 1917 alongside the standard M1903. The M1917 was the British designed Pattern 1914 rechambered for the American .30-06 cartridge. American factories had already tooled up to produce the P1914 (cal .303 British) in response to British contracts and it was easier for them to churn out a rechambered rifle rather than retooling and retraining to produce the M1903.
The might of Winchester, Remington and the Eddystone Arsenals meant that production of the M1917, commonly referred to as "the Enfield", outstripped that of the M1903 Springfield and about 75% of the AEF in France were Enfield armed. Alvin York used an Enfield when he performed his 1918 heroics, though Hollywood put an M1903 in Gary Cooper's hands in that 1941 movie.

Its interesting they also gave Gary Cooper a Luger instead of a M1911, (something to do with blanks I think). Its amazing they had that debate over the M1903 and the P1914/M1917, when they had so many M1903's with very poorly heat treated receivers. But to this day folks will insist the all-American M1903 was better. Never mind it was just a modified copy of the German Mauser.

And let us not forget Remington and Westinghouse contracted M1891 Mosin-Nagant's were the rifle of choice for the US's Polar Bear Expedition.

 

[Llewellyn]

Unfortunately I do not have ready access to my copy of Hatcher's Notebook, but I feel pretty certain that the problems of M1903 receivers shattering due to poor heat treating was sorted long before the start of WW1 (April 1917).

The provenance of the P14 and M17 was quite interesting; the British Army had been very impressed by the 7x57 Mausers that armed the Boers during the South African War 1899-1902, and came up with a design for a similar weapon, using a 7mm rimless cartridge (which we designated .276") and a Mauser style action. I think that the US Army had been similarly impressed a year or so earlier by the Spanish Mauser.
After a few years of trials and development the new British design was denominated P13, but the outbreak of war in August 1914 prevented the manufacture of a new rifle to replace the Mk III SMLE. A shortage of rifles meant that British forces were armed with a variety of weapons, including older Marks of the Lee Enfield and even the Japanese Arisaka. When it came to letting contracts in the US for .303 rifles, the chosen design was based on the P13, but in the standard British calibre, and hence we arrived at the P14. Visually the two rifles were very similar, except that the P13 had very distinctive finger grip slots on the forestock. Few were made, and today they are very rare. I have only ever managed to lay hands on one once, at the Gun Barrel Proof House in Birmingham.

 

[Craig L Barry]

I've never understood why soldiers wanted those Enfield's bright. Give me a blued or browned gun any day.

After all its said that at night if you listen hard enough, you can hear a Springfield rusting.

But there are many folks at events out there that take quotes like that and swear EVERY Enfield got polished by all soldiers North and South.

Topic for another day. Blued vs bright P53 Enfields. I can recall responding to a post where this was discussed and the citation may have come from Cal Kinser's Hardcracker Handbook... about the vast majority of original Enfields being struck bright or "burnished." If you want to know what the barrel finish was like at the time which is kind of the whole point, take the barrel out of the stock and see what the it looks like underneath.

 

[hrobalabama]

Topic for another day. Blued vs bright P53 Enfields. I can recall responding to a post where this was discussed and the citation may have come from Cal Kinser's Hardcracker Handbook... about the vast majority of original Enfields being struck bright or "burnished." If you want to know what the barrel finish was like at the time which is kind of the whole point, take the barrel out of the stock and see what the it looks like underneath.

Mine was a 100% bright blue!

 

[mofederal]

As far as carrying the Enfield P1853 and the Model 1861 Springfield, I have owned both rifles. I much preferred the Springfield. I never had that much trouble keeping either muskets bright, it was busy work, but I still managed it.

 

[rli]

As to bright or blue Enfields I remember reading once although I can't site the book as I don't exactly remember the title that troops/ordnance were ordered to remove the bluing so it was easier to identify a weapon that was not being maintained. I'll take the week end to go back through my books to see if I can find it.

 

[yulzari]

A one to one comparison is not possible as the Springfield was a factory consistent product. The Enfields were a mixture of variable hand fitted rifles, to totally comparable factory made London Small Arms Company equivalents to the proper British Ordnance factory made ones and were completely on a par with the Springfield. The bulk being the hand fitted. Nevertheless hand fitted ones also went on to later lives as breech loaders across the world serving as long as the Great War. What the normal ACW soldier did not know was how to distinguish the poor from the excellent so a Springfield was a known good standard and swapping to a Springfield was a safe choice. An ACW Enfield pick up might be as good but possibly less so.

In their position i would personally choose an LSAC Enfield but otherwise the Springfield makes a sensible default choice.