Grant Does biographer Chernow over-emphasize Grant's drinking?

[Reconstructed Rebel]

Another problem is Grant suffered from migraines. He could have been prostrate in his tent and a likely explanation would have been drinking.

I don't know where I read it, so it may not be correct, but I was given to understand that Grant suffered from migraines. If you didn't know how someone with a migraine presented, you could easily mistake it for a bad hangover.

I just want to second these conclusions. I had nasty migraines for years - one day I had to drag myself out of bed to answer the doorbell. The person at the door asked if I was drunk - no I was not.

As usual during such attacks, I had been throwing up and I felt like a spike was being hammered into one side of my head and my eye on that side would not open all the way. A look in the mirror made me realize why they thought I was drunk though.

 

[Reconstructed Rebel]

FWIW - Grant was seriously fond of cigars - another popular, if unhealthy, way to deal with stress. And the point made below points to a never ending loop Grant may have created for himself.

Smoking and tobacco. The nicotine in cigarettes and e-cigarettes constricts blood vessels in your brain by making them narrower and tighter, which can trigger migraine attacks.
Source:

10 common migraine triggers and how to cope with them | NIH MedlinePlus Magazine

Common triggers for people with migraine include stress, hormones, what you eat and drink, your sleep, and your environment. Learning what your triggers are and how they affect you is the first step to finding relief. These coping strategies can help.

magazine.medlineplus.gov

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

More than that, chronic drinking is not alcoholism. Alcoholism is dependency,

Chronic drinking is dependency, just psychological rather than physical. You haven't developed a chemical need for alcohol, but you still feel you need it to socialize or need it to deal with stress.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Catton seemed to think that Grant did not drink to excess during the civil war.

There is the notorious drinking spree during the siege of Vicksburg. I think it was reported by a reporter by the name of Cadwaller (sp?) and pretty long after the war. Both Grant and Rawlins would have been dead.

Another problem is Grant suffered from migraines. He could have been prostrate in his tent and a likely explanation would have been drinking.

Another explanation is for illness quite a few medicines had a good slug of alcohol in them. Grant is generally considered to be "a cheap date" and if he was under the weather and given a common patent medicine, it could look like a drinking bout.

At this remove, I do not know how we could really know. From what I have read, Grant seems to have drank far less than many Civil War generals. But he does seem to have drank some. The consensus is that any drinking Grant did, did not affect his performance.

Actually, a more serious threat to Grant's performance was his love of hotrodding on spirited horses. He was seriously injured a number of times. Of course, many

Cadwallader's self aggrandizing account has been thoroughly refuted repeatedly.

It has also been established that what observers thought was Grant's drinking was, in fact, lifelong episodic attacks of malaria.

 

[SSVilla]

Cadwallader's self aggrandizing account has been thoroughly refuted repeatedly.

It has also been established that what observers thought was Grant's drinking was, in fact, lifelong episodic attacks of malaria.

Ohh I didn't know this! ^ between that and migraines he even admits in the memoirs… most famously right before meeting Lee at Appomattox he mentioned having a splitting headache that evaporated with the expectation of the surrender. I can't even imagine the tension headaches Lee gave him.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Ohh I didn't know this! ^ between that and migraines he even admits in the memoirs… most famously right before meeting Lee at Appomattox he mentioned having a splitting headache that evaporated with the expectation of the surrender. I can't even imagine the tension headaches Lee gave him.

I am always amused by my Virginia-centric friends. If you read Grant's coms he was managing continental war as well as finishing off the Army of N VA.

It is useful to note that on an 8 1/2" X 11" map of the Western Theater the entire operating area of the A of the P & A of N VA is the size of a postage stamp.

 

[Bentonville]

I think there's a significant distinction to be made between an alcoholic and someone who can't hold their liquor.

There are heavy alcoholics who can consume a surprising amount of booze before appearing inebriated. There are also "lightweights" who are noticeably tipsy after one beer, but don't necessarily have any urges to drink.

Alcoholism is about a need, a compulsion - chemical/physical or psychological - to consume alcohol. Grant using alcohol as a crutch for dealing with loneliness and boredom while at a backwater outpost doesn't make him an alcoholic.

If Grant was an alcoholic he probably did a better job of staying on the wagon than 99% of people who go through AA.

As an alcoholic I think you're part write. I'm fond of saying that alcohol is never an excuse, just a reason.

If he was binge drinking, that made him an alcoholic. Look at his past and you'll see less a pattern in life that is shared with many the drinker.

 

[SSVilla]

I am always amused by my Virginia-centric friends. If you read Grant's coms he was managing continental war as well as finishing off the Army of N VA.

It is useful to note that on an 8 1/2" X 11" map of the Western Theater the entire operating area of the A of the P & A of N VA is the size of a postage stamp.

Wow.

Absolutely. Also, I recall a quote from Chamberlain who wrote:

"He had somehow, with all his modesty, the rare faculty of controlling his superiors as well as his subordinates. He outfaced Stanton, captivated the President, and even compelled acquiescence or silence from that dread source of paralyzing power, the Congressional Committee on the conduct of the war."

Excerpt From
The Passing of the Armies
Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
This material may be protected by copyright.

How rare is that faculty I bolded! That's why as much as anything else, like his persistence and resilience, I don't think there's anyone else in the U.S Army that could have managed what he did at that time, and close out that war like he did. Just the politics alone had been the bane of a few army commanders and the political commanders who had endured defeats and were still protected for political reasons were not competent enough for the task at hand.

I saw a video on CSpan (Grant as Union Army in Chief) where Historian Christopher Kolakowski said that by creating the rank of lieutenant general for him Congress had committed to him in a way that could not be undone. It was a permanent promotion and if he failed, he would fall from grace very hard, very fast and he would probably take the Lincoln administration with him and require an admission that the war was over and lost. I can't imagine the kind of pressure he shouldered, only him and Lincoln had that kind of pressure, but because it was Grant making the war decisions and recommendations I can't even imagine.

He also enlisted Meade's cooperation, a skillful move, which he'd need because he would have to delegate a lot. Some would say he delegated too much, but he had a lot on his plate already. He couldn't micromanage the AoP and do everything else he was doing. While his relationship with Meade wasn't without difficulties I give credit to both for making it work to the end. I was very impressed by something Meade wrote to his wife as she was complaining that he wouldn't get credit for the victories of the AoP, Meade writes her, "I intend to give him my full cooperation." I think Meade was a proper soldier, even if that relationship was at times challenging for him.

 

[damYankee]

Compared to Churchill he was as sober as a priest. As someone who enjoys an occasional drink I think the entire issue was overblown by the press and exploited by rivals who wanted to replace Grant with themselves.

 

[JackADriscoll]

Compared to Churchill he was as sober as a priest. As someone who enjoys an occasional drink I think the entire issue was overblown by the press and exploited by rivals who wanted to replace Grant with themselves.

I read something recently I can't remember where that grant was criticized about what he drank which was whiskey spirits and not Madeira. Am I making this up?

 

[rbasin]

"Blah blah Yankee Myth blah blah blah."

How about we just stick to the evidence. The New Orleans incident has contradictory accounts. Any modern person who claims to know exactly what happened is just blowing smoke.

While admittedly not the biggest fan of Grant, I simply don't see him as a drunk, of which I do have some experience.

I don't think Grant himself ever acknowledged it in his book. He simply stated that he couldn't support his family on his pay.

I'm wondering if there is any evidence of his issue prewar.

 

[damYankee]

The press has always been muckrakers and slanderers hiding behind the 1st A.
And anyone who thinks it was different during the 19th century are misinformed.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Wow.

Absolutely. Also, I recall a quote from Chamberlain who wrote:

"He had somehow, with all his modesty, the rare faculty of controlling his superiors as well as his subordinates. He outfaced Stanton, captivated the President, and even compelled acquiescence or silence from that dread source of paralyzing power, the Congressional Committee on the conduct of the war."

Excerpt From
The Passing of the Armies
Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
This material may be protected by copyright.

How rare is that faculty I bolded! That's why as much as anything else, like his persistence and resilience, I don't think there's anyone else in the U.S Army that could have managed what he did at that time, and close out that war like he did. Just the politics alone had been the bane of a few army commanders and the political commanders who had endured defeats and were still protected for political reasons were not competent enough for the task at hand.

I saw a video on CSpan (Grant as Union Army in Chief) where Historian Christopher Kolakowski said that by creating the rank of lieutenant general for him Congress had committed to him in a way that could not be undone. It was a permanent promotion and if he failed, he would fall from grace very hard, very fast and he would probably take the Lincoln administration with him and require an admission that the war was over and lost. I can't imagine the kind of pressure he shouldered, only him and Lincoln had that kind of pressure, but because it was Grant making the war decisions and recommendations I can't even imagine.

He also enlisted Meade's cooperation, a skillful move, which he'd need because he would have to delegate a lot. Some would say he delegated too much, but he had a lot on his plate already. He couldn't micromanage the AoP and do everything else he was doing. While his relationship with Meade wasn't without difficulties I give credit to both for making it work to the end. I was very impressed by something Meade wrote to his wife as she was complaining that he wouldn't get credit for the victories of the AoP, Meade writes her, "I intend to give him my full cooperation." I think Meade was a proper soldier, even if that relationship was at times challenging for him.

Chris & I know each other of old. He runs the Mac Arthur Center in Norfolk. He is the real deal.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Many of us here in this thread have indicated a knowledge of chronic drinking problems. I am in that group. Hard earned insights into the behavior of alcoholics & chronic drinkers makes it obvious to me that wasn't Grant's problem.

Grant, as reported under Rawling's eagle eye, was sober. Alcoholics, once they start to drink can't stop. Witness General Cheatham's behavior. The man who hid in the magazine at Fort Steadman & got all those men killed at the Creater or the one who told the outpost at Franklin to hold fast are examples of military behavior by alcoholics.

It has always struck me as exceedingly odd that Lost Causers go on about Grant's drinking. They seem unaware that meant that CSA generals couldn't beat a hapless drunk.

 

[SSVilla]

Many of us here in this thread have indicated a knowledge of chronic drinking problems. I am in that group. Hard earned insights into the behavior of alcoholics & chronic drinkers makes it obvious to me that wasn't Grant's problem.

Grant, as reported under Rawling's eagle eye, was sober. Alcoholics, once they start to drink can't stop. Witness General Cheatham's behavior. The man who hid in the magazine at Fort Steadman & got all those men killed at the Creater or the one who told the outpost at Franklin to hold fast are examples of military behavior by alcoholics.

It has always struck me as exceedingly odd that Lost Causers go on about Grant's drinking. They seem unaware that meant that CSA generals couldn't beat a hapless drunk.

Thanks for sharing. I don't know anything about drinking problems at all (lucky me) but I noticed the press was only too eager to report anything that would sell papers and Grant had many rivals whose first tactic was to run to the press to disparage him.

Then whenever I tried to find any substance there wasn't anything credible. To me the one incident (and this is just me being skeptical and also not knowing squat about this) that always made me suspicious, not of alcoholism but that he had a few drinks and was at least tipsy, was the fall from the horse in Louisiana and that's because I reasoned that if he was such a gifted horseman, how could he have fallen off in a way to be unconscious… that must have been some vicious horse!

But then Chernov in his biography also points out that the account of that incident was uncorroborated, and even further that it didn't conform to the alleged "pattern" he found. On that occasion Grant would have had to have been drunk in public before a large group of people that would be able to identify him and damage his reputation. Chernov had this theory that he only drank away when he wouldn't be seen by his troops and away from official duties. That time didn't conform to his working hypothesis.

I wondered also how he had that kind of self control to know exactly when he could indulge safely and when he could not. It didn't make sense.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

The press has always been muckrakers and slanderers hiding behind the 1st A.
And anyone who thinks it was different during the 19th century are misinformed.

Only one of those terms is a pejorative.

I agree the press was particularly bad in the 1860s because almost all press was partisan (probably something encouraged by the Spoils System) and journalism standards were low, if they even existed at all.

Witness General Cheatham's behavior. The man who hid in the magazine at Fort Steadman & got all those men killed at the Creater or the one who told the outpost at Franklin to hold fast are examples of military behavior by alcoholics.

Ledlie was the drunk at the Crater. Also, earlier in the Overland Campaign. I don't know who was allegedly drunk at Franklin. Cheatham was accused of being drunk at Stones River, IIRC.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Thanks for sharing. I don't know anything about drinking problems at all (lucky me) but I noticed the press was only too eager to report anything that would sell papers and Grant had many rivals whose first tactic was to run to the press to disparage him.

Then whenever I tried to find any substance there wasn't anything credible. To me the one incident (and this is just me being skeptical and also not knowing squat about this) that always made me suspicious, not of alcoholism but that he had a few drinks and was at least tipsy, was the fall from the horse in Louisiana and that's because I reasoned that if he was such a gifted horseman, how could he have fallen off in a way to be unconscious… that must have been some vicious horse!

But then Chernov in his biography also points out that the account of that incident was uncorroborated, and even further that it didn't conform to the alleged "pattern" he found. On that occasion Grant would have had to have been drunk in public before a large group of people that would be able to identify him and damage his reputation. Chernov had this theory that he only drank away when he wouldn't be seen by his troops and away from official duties. That time didn't conform to his working hypothesis.

I wondered also how he had that kind of self control to know exactly when he could indulge safely and when he could not. It didn't make sense.

Only one of those terms is a pejorative.

I agree the press was particularly bad in the 1860s because almost all press was partisan (probably something encouraged by the Spoils System) and journalism standards were low, if they even existed at all.



Ledlie was the drunk at the Crater. Also, earlier in the Overland Campaign. I don't know who was allegedly drunk at Franklin. Cheatham was accused of being drunk at Stones River, IIRC.

Oid Isham, General Cheatham's warhorse went to pasture in a paddock along Cheatham Creek. The land owner keeps up his grave. The General died from the effects of lifelong alcohol abuse.

 

[Belfoured]

Only one of those terms is a pejorative.

I agree the press was particularly bad in the 1860s because almost all press was partisan (probably something encouraged by the Spoils System) and journalism standards were low, if they even existed at all.



Ledlie was the drunk at the Crater. Also, earlier in the Overland Campaign. I don't know who was allegedly drunk at Franklin. Cheatham was accused of being drunk at Stones River, IIRC.

As you suggest, Ledlie was "blottoed" at North Anna.

 

[A. Roy]

I know this discussion has wandered down the road a bit since last Friday, when I wrote about U.S. Grant's purported June 1863 Yazoo River bender, as recounted years later by journalist Sylvanus Cadwallader (who apparently was not even present for the occasion). What we were originally talking about here is the question whether Ron Chernow really uses Grant's supposed drinking problems as a major theme in his Grant biography.

After throwing serious doubt on the veracity of Cadwallader's account, Chernow posits that it may in fact "contain a kernel of truth," and that it seems to fit with things that John Rawlins and Charles A. Dana said about Grant's drinking. Here's what Chernow says about Dana:

"Like Cadwallader, Dana left a knowing description of Grant's drinking, arguing that he always had a degree of control over it—somewhat unusual for an alcoholic. He noted that Grant never drank when it might imperil his army, but 'always chose a time when the gratification of his appetite for drink would not interfere with any important movement that had to be directed or attended by him.'

"... Dana provided a convincing explanation of why some people close to Grant claimed, in all honesty, that they never saw these drinking episodes: 'The times were chosen with perfect judgment, and when it was all over, no outsider would have suspected that such things had been.'" (Page 276)

So it seems that Chernow has come to the conclusion that Grant and his close friends were well aware of the General's wartime drinking periods, but they were willing to protect him if it meant securing his role in high command:

"In other words, Charles A. Dana had arrived at the same conclusion as John A. Rawlins: that Ulysses S. Grant was so essential to the Union cause that it was better to shield his sporadic binges than expose him to official censure." (Page 276)

"Ironically, Dana, originally sent by Stanton to spy on Grant's drinking, became, like Rawlins, an unexpected accomplice in concealing the problem." (Page 274)

ARB

 

[tony_gunter]

.

If he was binge drinking, that made him an alcoholic. Look at his past and you'll see less a pattern in life that is shared with many the drinker.

That's not true, I've participated in binge drinking in the past, and never felt a *need* for alcohol. Often, it was just for kicks because my metabolism was so ungodly that at 140 pounds I could out drink people twice my size.

I've lived with an alcoholic before, and the need is a very different and frightening situation. I can now understand why people around me were concerned.

If you look at a modern DSM, it's all about dependency, not how much one chooses to drink.