Grant Does biographer Chernow over-emphasize Grant's drinking?

[Bentonville]

That's not true, I've participated in binge drinking in the past, and never felt a *need* for alcohol. Often, it was just for kicks because my metabolism was so ungodly that at 140 pounds I could out drink people twice my size.

I've lived with an alcoholic before, and the need is a very different and frightening situation. I can now understand why people around me were concerned.

If you look at a modern DSM, it's all about dependency, not how much one chooses to drink.

You are of course your right to your opinion. However wrong, like the term alcoholic, vary I guess.

If you go by what is said in the therapy field, that's what they. All people, being unique, have a different experience. I felt no compulsion to drink every day. But when I started it didn't stop, then it would, in a semi circular manner.

If you can party and then straighten up, then binge again it can be the start of something. You feel good, right? Some (waving my ha d) don't know when feeling good and reality blur.

So 'wrong' is totally subjective. Therefor irrelevant in this particular conversation. Grant binge drank under certain circumstances.

His wife isn't around? Drinks.

Nothing going? Drinking.

I'd say that it was a large bender between wars. When you can't farm. You're selling firewood. You pawned your watch. You end up working for a father in job you find boring, reditive and disgusting.

Just sayin'.

 

[tony_gunter]

You are of course your right to your opinion. However wrong, like the term alcoholic, vary I guess.

It's not my opinion; it's the DSM.

If you go by what is said in the therapy field, that's what they. All people, being unique, have a different experience. I felt no compulsion to drink every day. But when I started it didn't stop, then it would, in a semi circular manner.

If you can party and then straighten up, then binge again it can be the start of something. You feel good, right? Some (waving my ha d) don't know when feeling good and reality blur.

So 'wrong' is totally subjective. Therefor irrelevant in this particular conversation. Grant binge drank under certain circumstances.

Objection: facts not in evidence.

Grant appears to have suffered migraines, which can mimic intoxication. He was prescribed a series of dubious treatments for headaches, which sometimes included alcohol. He was surrounded by temperance zealots who considered any alcohol consumption drunkenness, and was often accused by people with something to gain by the accusation. Some of these accusations are provably false. It's impossible therefore to really say when Grant drank or how much he drank.

One thing we do know is that he showed no signs of dependency. So … drinker? Yes. Binge drinker? Maybe. Alcoholic? Absolutely not.

 

[Bentonville]

It's not my opinion; it's the DSM.



Objection: facts not in evidence.

Grant appears to have suffered migraines, which can mimic intoxication. He was prescribed a series of dubious treatments for headaches, which sometimes included alcohol. He was surrounded by temperance zealots who considered any alcohol consumption drunkenness, and was often accused by people with something to gain by the accusation. Some of these accusations are provably false. It's impossible therefore to really say when Grant drank or how much he drank.

One thing we do know is that he showed no signs of dependency. So … drinker? Yes. Binge drinker? Maybe. Alcoholic? Absolutely not.

Objection overuled!

I just wanted to say.that. We'll call it a draw.

 

[A. Roy]

"This episode makes clear that Grant, from an early age, acknowledged that he had a chronic drinking problem, was never cavalier about it, and was determined to resolve it. This overly controlled young man now wrestled with a disease that caused a total loss of control, which must have made it more tormenting and pestered his Methodist conscience."

In an earlier post, I referred to the above quote on page 67 of Chernow's biography, discussing the winter of 1849-50 when Grant was in Detroit. I'm pretty sure that the view of alcoholism as a disease emerged in the 20th century, or at least was pretty limited in the Civil War era. For a disorder like this, it's questionable to assign a diagnosis for someone who is no longer living.
AR

 

[TallTallMan]

Considering Chernow's worshipful book makes Clifford Dowdey look like Alan Nolan, I don't know why he would believe one of the most disprovable pieces of Grantiana.

 

[Library Lady]

Here's an item of interest that's in the same auction as Sherman's sword.

Grant Is Not a Drunk! Vice President's Testimony

Letter signed by Henry Wilson, as Senator. Washington, D.C., 14 March 1868. 1 page, 4to, on United States Senate Chamber letterhead. An important letter regarding President Ulysses S. Grant's relationship with alcohol, written by his future vice-president, Henry Wilson (1812-1875). Written...

bid.fleischersauctions.com

 

[edfranksphd]

Not sure what you mean by your first sentence. Can you explain with examples if that's possible.

sorry for delay... i'm not sure what i meant either!! sometimes I read too quick and then I type too quick and then i've no clue what I meant. I think Grant is guilty of underemphasizing his drinking, but, as many above have noted, hard drinking in those days was fairly routine, although hard drinking doesn't have to mean getting "stupid" drunk at the same time. Seems, given all the reports/rumors, very unlikely that Grant didn't have a problem. It seems to have led directly to his early exist from the army. Mighta been cause of his fall from horse in New Orleans that nearly crippled him. Cadwallader was sent by Lincoln and Halleck to keep and eye on Grant's drinking during the Vicksburg campaign, and when Grant disappeared up the Yazoo for a few days, it seemed pretty suspicious to Cadwallader. There's little doubt imho that he was an alcoholic, in the sense that when he did drink he would drink to excess -- but luckily it seems he didn't drink that often, probably b/c he knew that it could lead to blackouts and/or behavior that he would not be able to predict. I dunno what Chernow said, but as a Jew, maybe he is getting even for Order No. 10 to remove all Jews from the area when they were doing too much trading in cotton with the enemy? Anyway, Churchill was a card-carrying periodic alcoholic, but he did okay?! : )

PS: For the record, Lee never touched a drop of nuttin' -- the man was practically a saint, by contrast!

 

[edfranksphd]

Not sure what you mean by your first sentence. Can you explain with examples if that's possible.

sorry for delay... i'm not sure what i meant either!! sometimes I read too quick and then I type too quick and then i've no clue what I meant. I think Grant is guilty of underemphasizing his drinking, but, as many above have noted, hard drinking in those days was fairly routine, although hard drinking doesn't have to mean getting "stupid" drunk at the same time. Seems, given all the reports/rumors, very unlikely that Grant didn't have a problem. It seems to have led directly to his early exist from the army. Mighta been cause of his fall from horse in New Orleans that nearly crippled him. Cadwallader was sent by Lincoln and Halleck to keep and eye on Grant's drinking during the Vicksburg campaign, and when Grant disappeared up the Yazoo for a few days, it seemed pretty suspicious to Cadwallader. There's little doubt imho that he was an alcoholic, in the sense that when he did drink he would drink to excess -- but luckily it seems he didn't drink that often, probably b/c he knew that it could lead to blackouts and/or behavior that he would not be able to predict. I dunno what Chernow said, but as a Jew, maybe he is getting even for Order No. 10 to remove all Jews from the area when they were doing too much trading in cotton with the enemy? Anyway, Churchill was a card-carrying periodic alcoholic, but he did okay?! : )

PS: For the record, Lee never touched a drop of nuttin' -- the man was practically a saint, by contrast!

 

[uaskme]

Here's an item of interest that's in the same auction as Sherman's sword.

Grant Is Not a Drunk! Vice President's Testimony

Letter signed by Henry Wilson, as Senator. Washington, D.C., 14 March 1868. 1 page, 4to, on United States Senate Chamber letterhead. An important letter regarding President Ulysses S. Grant's relationship with alcohol, written by his future vice-president, Henry Wilson (1812-1875). Written...

bid.fleischersauctions.com

Politician wanting a political favor probably not a good witnes.

 

[uaskme]

Cover up is always worse than the crime! Should be a limit on how much white washing one person should get.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Lee never touched a drop of nuttin' -- the man was practically a saint, by contrast!

Not even close to being a saint.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Should be a limit on how much white washing one person should get.

Should be a limit on how much white-washing a losing rebellion should get.

 

[TallTallMan]

Should be a limit on how much white-washing a losing rebellion should get.

Whataboutism, I'm afraid. Additionally, I don't know why whitewashing one side is preferable to another. I want neither.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Whataboutism, I'm afraid. Additionally, I don't know why whitewashing one side is preferable to another. I want neither.

True. But when a lost causer complains about whitewashing history, I have an uncontrollable urge to do some whataboutism.

 

[Library Lady]

Here's an item of interest that's in the same auction as Sherman's sword.

Grant Is Not a Drunk! Vice President's Testimony

Letter signed by Henry Wilson, as Senator. Washington, D.C., 14 March 1868. 1 page, 4to, on United States Senate Chamber letterhead. An important letter regarding President Ulysses S. Grant's relationship with alcohol, written by his future vice-president, Henry Wilson (1812-1875). Written...

bid.fleischersauctions.com

I checked to see if the item sold and for how much. It seems that someone was interested, though probably not @uaskme .

Grant Is Not a Drunk! Vice President's Testimony

Letter signed by Henry Wilson, as Senator. Washington, D.C., 14 March 1868. 1 page, 4to, on United States Senate Chamber letterhead. An important letter regarding President Ulysses S. Grant's relationship with alcohol, written by his future vice-president, Henry Wilson (1812-1875). Written...

bid.fleischersauctions.com

 

[edfranksphd]

Politician wanting a political favor probably not a good witnes.

Precisely... And first we may want to spend some time thinking about a precise definition of an alcoholic? It can get rather convoluted, the definition I mean. : )

 

[edfranksphd]

Politician wanting a political favor probably not a good witnes.

Precisely... And first we may want to spend some time thinking about a precise definition of an alcoholic? It can get rather convoluted, the definition I mean. : )

 

[edfranksphd]

Not even close to being a saint.

I think my point here was "only" that Grant was not close to being as devout in belief as Lee? And, perhaps, belief notwithstanding, Grant was well short of Lee when it came to behavior to boot!? Does this strike you as an outrageous claim? To me, it seems an easy claim for one to make and sustain (but I've never made a study of the question nor do I recall anyone else that may have done the same?)

 

[edfranksphd]

I think my point here was "only" that Grant was not close to being as devout in belief as Lee? And, perhaps, belief notwithstanding, Grant was well short of Lee when it came to behavior to boot!? Does this strike you as an outrageous claim? To me, it seems an easy claim for one to make and sustain (but I've never made a study of the question nor do I recall anyone else that may have done the same?)

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

I don't think Grant drank as much as they say. He DID, but just not to the extent that some writers imply. He probably did on the Yazoo but Cadwallader gave it a newspaperman's embellishment.

In Joe Rose's defense, though, he includes his newspaper drinking stories for posterity. Chernow just accepted whatever sounds good. Also the basis of his research is Grant bios, Shelby Foote, Bruce Catton, and 150th Anniversary books.

Everything that I have read comes up to the sum total of what TallTallMan has said.