Did mercenaries still exist?

[leftyhunter]

Thanks. I've seen many of those names but I always wondered - were any of these generals considered great commanders?

We should keep in mind the Confederate Army also had forigeners in it's ranks some were volunteers some were conscripted. The Confederacy had forigen born officers General Clebourne from Ireland being the most famous.
The most famous Confederate regiment consisting mostly of forigeners was the 4th Louisiana Regiment " Wheats Tiger's" or the " Tiger Regiment".
An Irish defector from the Confederate Army to the Union Army killed Confederate General Morgan in Tennessee.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

I think that's exactly what I said, the FFL as an integral part of the French army would have taken France into the ACW.

Actually the FFL were mercenaries that were incorporated into the French Army albeit in a separate military organization.
Leftyhunter

 

[danny]

We should keep in mind the Confederate Army also had forigeners in it's ranks some were volunteers some were conscripted. The Confederacy had forigen born officers General Clebourne from Ireland being the most famous.
The most famous Confederate regiment consisting mostly of forigeners was the 4th Louisiana Regiment " Wheats Tiger's" or the " Tiger Regiment".
An Irish defector from the Confederate Army to the Union Army killed Confederate General Morgan in Tennessee.
Leftyhunter

That is a weak effort at equivalence.

As I'm sure you know, the amount of foreigners in the CSA was a drop in the bucket compared to the Yankees.

 

[leftyhunter]

That is a weak effort at equivalence.

As I'm sure you know, the amount of foreigners in the CSA was a drop in the bucket compared to the Yankees.

That's not the Union's fault. The Confederacy tried to use immigrants but they just had less. It's not like the Union did anything unusual in enlisting foreign born men. The US always had forigeners in it's military in every single war.
Leftyhunter

 

[danny]

That's not the Union's fault. The Confederacy tried to use immigrants but they just had less. It's not like the Union did anything unusual in enlisting foreign born men. The US always had forigeners in it's military in every single war.
Leftyhunter

Calm down Lefty. No one said it was anyone's fault; and we are discussing the Civil War not every single war.

By the way, less for the South and more for the North was after all, the point. Regardless of your example of one Southern deserter with an Irish background.

No need to get your dander up and fire back with defensive posts trying to equalize [ot trivialize] every comparative situation in the war.

 

[Poorville]

Actually the FFL were mercenaries that were incorporated into the French Army albeit in a separate military organization.
Leftyhunter

We are talking mercenaries during 1861-65, the FFL were not a mercenary force but an integral part of the French army. But as always Leftyhunter if you have evidence to the contrary I'd love to read it.

 

[Llewellyn]

It's a matter of interpretation, I suppose, but I for one don't consider the Legion to be a mercenary organisation, any more than I consider British Army Gurkhas to be.

The UN definition might help,

Article 1 of the Convention has the following definition of a mercenary:

1. A mercenary is any person who:
(a) Is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;(b) Is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar rank and functions in the armed forces of that party;(c) Is neither a national of a party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a party to the conflict;(d) Is not a member of the armed forces of a party to the conflict; and(e) Has not been sent by a State which is not a party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.
2. A mercenary is also any person who, in any other situation:
(a) Is specially recruited locally or abroad for the purpose of participating in a concerted act of violence aimed ati) Overthrowing a Government or otherwise undermining the constitutional order of a State; or(ii) Undermining the territorial integrity of a State;(b) Is motivated to take part therein essentially by the desire for significant private gain and is prompted by the promise or payment of material compensation;(c) Is neither a national nor a resident of the State against which such an act is directed;(d) Has not been sent by a State on official duty; and(e) Is not a member of the armed forces of the State on whose territory the act is undertaken.
— UN Mercenary Convention[1]

 

[leftyhunter]

We are talking mercenaries during 1861-65, the FFL were not a mercenary force but an integral part of the French army. But as always Leftyhunter if you have evidence to the contrary I'd love to read it.

So using the UN model as provided by @Llewellyn the FFL would be a mercenary force if the majority of it's volunteers joined for monetary purposes.
The FFL would be a mercenary force if France decided to sell their services to the highest bidder.
Different people have joined the FFL over the years for various reasons not sure what the motivation was for young men in the 1860s.
The best antebellum era example use of mercenaries was the Southern men who fought with William Walker to force Nicaragua to become a country that accepted slavery.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

It's a matter of interpretation, I suppose, but I for one don't consider the Legion to be a mercenary organisation, any more than I consider British Army Gurkhas to be.

The UN definition might help,

Article 1 of the Convention has the following definition of a mercenary:

In relation to citizens of Nepal who join the British or Indian armies it would per the UN definition depend on their motivation for joining a foreign army.
Leftyhunter

 

[jackt62]

I thought a true mercenary was a person who individually offered their military service in return for monetary compensation to whatever government/guerrilla group was willing to pay. So that would not include formal organizations such as the FFL, or Americans who enlisted in the British Army before the US entered WWII, or Irish immigrants who might have been recruited in Europe to join the Union Army.

 

[leftyhunter]

Did European mercenary armies (ie. the Hessians) still exist during the Civil War? Did Lincoln (or Davis for that matter) ever consider hiring them? I assume the politics would look terrible and the answer is no, but who knows.

It is certainly possible that the idea was floated to copy hiring a foreign army as the British did during the ARW. That would be a great question for an established Lincoln Scholar. Absolutely true the US did copy the British example in other conflicts bounus points if one can PM the examples.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

I thought a true mercenary was a person who individually offered their military service in return for monetary compensation to whatever government/guerrilla group was willing to pay. So that would not include formal organizations such as the FFL, or Americans who enlisted in the British Army before the US entered WWII, or Irish immigrants who might have been recruited in Europe to join the Union Army.

If the sole motivation was monetary then per the above UN definition yes a foreigner who enlists in the Union Army just for the bounty and a foreigner who joins the Confederate Navy just for potential prize money would be a mercenary.
Not sure how many Americans joined the British Army before December 9th 1941 but the pay would not be the motivation for doing so.
In the case of the American Volunteer Group where American pilots joined the Chinese Air Force monetary compensation was certainly a factor at least per an interview with their most famous pilot Gregory " Pappy" Boyington.
Leftyhunter

 

[jackt62]

If the sole motivation was monetary then per the above UN definition yes a foreigner who enlists in the Union Army just for the bounty and a foreigner who joins the Confederate Navy just for potential prize money would be a mercenary.
Not sure how many Americans joined the British Army before December 9th 1941 but the pay would not be the motivation for doing so.
In the case of the American Volunteer Group where American pilots joined the Chinese Air Force monetary compensation was certainly a factor at least per an interview with their most famous pilot Gregory " Pappy" Boyington.
Leftyhunter

True, there is a fine line here. After all, what about the bounty jumpers who joined for the money but had obviously no intention of actually serving.

 

[leftyhunter]

True, there is a fine line here. After all, what about the bounty jumpers who joined for the money but had obviously no intention of actually serving.

My favorite bounty jumper is Duane Pressly who twice joined a Confederate Mississippi Cavalry Regiment and absconded with his issued horse and lived to tell the tale.
Perhaps you heard of his great grandson.
Leftyhunter

 

[Poorville]

So using the UN model as provided by @Llewellyn the FFL would be a mercenary force if the majority of it's volunteers joined for monetary purposes.
The FFL would be a mercenary force if France decided to sell their services to the highest bidder.
Different people have joined the FFL over the years for various reasons not sure what the motivation was for young men in the 1860s.
The best antebellum era example use of mercenaries was the Southern men who fought with William Walker to force Nicaragua to become a country that accepted slavery.
Leftyhunter

The French Foreign Legion was and is the only unit of the French Army open to people of any nationality. Legionnaires are regular soldiers, paid according to French Army pay scales. There is nothing in the UN Convention that could see the FFL interpreted as a mercenary force.

 

[leftyhunter]

The French Foreign Legion was and is the only unit of the French Army open to people of any nationality. Legionnaires are regular soldiers, paid according to French Army pay scales. There is nothing in the UN Convention that could see the FFL interpreted as a mercenary force.

For some unfortunate souls French Army pay scales and three hots and a cot might be their sole motivation to join the FFL. In that case said volunteer would be a mercenary. I am not arguing all FFL volunteers are mercenaries but some are.
Leftyhunter

 

[Llewellyn]

If the sole motivation was monetary then per the above UN definition yes a foreigner who enlists in the Union Army just for the bounty and a foreigner who joins the Confederate Navy just for potential prize money would be a mercenary.
Not sure how many Americans joined the British Army before December 9th 1941 but the pay would not be the motivation for doing so.
In the case of the American Volunteer Group where American pilots joined the Chinese Air Force monetary compensation was certainly a factor at least per an interview with their most famous pilot Gregory " Pappy" Boyington.
Leftyhunter

Chennault's Flying Tigers had occurred to me as an example - but what about people who fight under a foreign flag for ideological reasons rather than money ?
I'd say that most Americans who came to help us before US involvement in both World Wars had joined the Canadian Army, and several were awarded the Victoria Cross in the Great War*. On one wise, the American Eagle Squadrons in the RAF were just another national grouping, alongside Czech, Polish, Free French, Canadian, Aussie, Kiwi South African, Rhodesian squadrons. However, the Americans had no dog in the race before December 1941, and most transferred to the Mighty Eighth once it got into action.
Red Morgan is a wonderful example - he tried to join the USAAF in 1938 but was rejected due to his poor educational record. He later joined the RCAF and after qualifying as a pilot he came to England and flew as a Sergeant pilot. On transferring to the USAAF, he was not given a commission (The Americans seemed to think that a man had to be commissioned in order to fill certain crew positions) and so he was initially graded as "Flight Officer" which was a curious position, similar, I suppose to a British Warrant Officer. In 1943 on his fifth US mission he was co-pilot in a B-17 of the 92nd Heavy Bomb Group and won a Medal of Honor in what I always consider to be the most remarkable flying MoH of any war.** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Morgan.
If you look at the photo in the link you'll see that Morgan eventually got his commission. You'll also note that he is wearing RAF pilots wings on the right breast which was the norm amongst USAAF airmen who had previously served in the RAF.


Then we come to organisations like the 15th International Brigade (including the Abraham Lincoln Battalion) during the Spanish Civil War - were they not ideological mercenaries ? (and there were ideologues who fought for the Nationalists too, though nowhere near as many.)

The list goes on. I am really confused about how to define a mercenary.

*. Four out of the five US citizens awarded the Victoria Cross were serving in the Canadian Army in the Great War. But the fifth - now here is an interesting thing - was Ordinary Seaman William Seeley, Royal Navy, HMS Euralyus, who won his Cross in Japan . . . . . in 1864 !!! (Bombardment of Shimonoseki). What was this New Englander doing in the Royal Navy in the middle of the Civil War ?

**Whilst Red Morgans MoH pips all other flying US and all but one flying VC , (in my estimation) I do believe that the Cross awarded to Flight Sergeant Norman Jackson takes the cake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Cyril_Jackson

He was Flight Engineer in a Lancaster attacking the famous ball bearing factories at Schweinfurt on the night of 26/27 April 1944. He had been wounded by splinters after a night fighter attack which set an engine on fire. Jackson attached a parachute, grabbed a fire extinguisher, and climbed out of a hatch in the top of the fuselage - this at 20,000 feet , at 140 mph in the middle of the night ! He managed to cling on, climbed down on to the wing, and started to try and insert the extinguisher into the engine cowling, suffering burns to his face and hands. At this point, with him out on the wing, the night fighter attacked again. His parachute had deployed accidentally as he had climbed out, and other crew members were clinging to the canopy inside the aircraft, and when they pushed it out it caught fire and dragged Jackson through the flames. The last the crew saw of him, was his smouldering parachute in the night sky.

Amazingly he survived, and fortunately the rest of the crew managed to parachute to safety, so this unbelievable episode was reported after PoWs were repatriated.

It all goes to make you wonder how many Red Morgan and Norman Jackson stories there were which could never be told.

Thanks for reading - I am rambling a bit this evening as thoughts of VE Day 75 are filling my mind.

 

[leftyhunter]

Chennault's Flying Tigers had occurred to me as an example - but what about people who fight under a foreign flag for ideological reasons rather than money ?
I'd say that most Americans who came to help us before US involvement in both World Wars had joined the Canadian Army, and several were awarded the Victoria Cross in the Great War*. On one wise, the American Eagle Squadrons in the RAF were just another national grouping, alongside Czech, Polish, Free French, Canadian, Aussie, Kiwi South African, Rhodesian squadrons. However, the Americans had no dog in the race before December 1941, and most transferred to the Mighty Eighth once it got into action.
Red Morgan is a wonderful example - he tried to join the USAAF in 1938 but was rejected due to his poor educational record. He later joined the RCAF and after qualifying as a pilot he came to England and flew as a Sergeant pilot. On transferring to the USAAF, he was not given a commission (The Americans seemed to think that a man had to be commissioned in order to fill certain crew positions) and so he was initially graded as "Flight Officer" which was a curious position, similar, I suppose to a British Warrant Officer. In 1943 on his fifth US mission he was co-pilot in a B-17 of the 92nd Heavy Bomb Group and won a Medal of Honor in what I always consider to be the most remarkable flying MoH of any war.** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Morgan.
If you look at the photo in the link you'll see that Morgan eventually got his commission. You'll also note that he is wearing RAF pilots wings on the right breast which was the norm amongst USAAF airmen who had previously served in the RAF.


Then we come to organisations like the 15th International Brigade (including the Abraham Lincoln Battalion) during the Spanish Civil War - were they not ideological mercenaries ? (and there were ideologues who fought for the Nationalists too, though nowhere near as many.)

The list goes on. I am really confused about how to define a mercenary.

*. Four out of the five US citizens awarded the Victoria Cross were serving in the Canadian Army in the Great War. But the fifth - now here is an interesting thing - was Ordinary Seaman William Seeley, Royal Navy, HMS Euralyus, who won his Cross in Japan . . . . . in 1864 !!! (Bombardment of Shimonoseki). What was this New Englander doing in the Royal Navy in the middle of the Civil War ?

**Whilst Red Morgans MoH pips all other flying US and all but one flying VC , (in my estimation) I do believe that the Cross awarded to Flight Sergeant Norman Jackson takes the cake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Cyril_Jackson

He was Flight Engineer in a Lancaster attacking the famous ball bearing factories at Schweinfurt on the night of 26/27 April 1944. He had been wounded by splinters after a night fighter attack which set an engine on fire. Jackson attached a parachute, grabbed a fire extinguisher, and climbed out of a hatch in the top of the fuselage - this at 20,000 feet , at 140 mph in the middle of the night ! He managed to cling on, climbed down on to the wing, and started to try and insert the extinguisher into the engine cowling, suffering burns to his face and hands. At this point, with him out on the wing, the night fighter attacked again. His parachute had deployed accidentally as he had climbed out, and other crew members were clinging to the canopy inside the aircraft, and when they pushed it out it caught fire and dragged Jackson through the flames. The last the crew saw of him, was his smouldering parachute in the night sky.

Amazingly he survived, and fortunately the rest of the crew managed to parachute to safety, so this unbelievable episode was reported after PoWs were repatriated.

It all goes to make you wonder how many Red Morgan and Norman Jackson stories there were which could never be told.

Thanks for reading - I am rambling a bit this evening as thoughts of VE Day 75 are filling my mind.

Well it's pretty simple ; if a person's motivation for joining a military organization is monetary then that person is a mercenary , if a person joins for a non financial reason then they are not a mercenary.
Leftyhunter

 

[Poorville]

For some unfortunate souls French Army pay scales and three hots and a cot might be their sole motivation to join the FFL. In that case said volunteer would be a mercenary. I am not arguing all FFL volunteers are mercenaries but some are.
Leftyhunter

I'm sorry Leftyhunter, I really don't see how you can justify that.

 

[Poorville]

Well it's pretty simple ; if a person's motivation for joining a military organization is monetary then that person is a mercenary , if a person joins for a non financial reason then they are not a mercenary.
Leftyhunter

So I volunteer to join the infantry because I can't find a job and have a family to feed so need the money and that makes me a mercenary?