Deserters

[leftyhunter]

Let's get back to deserters for a while. I can't offer anything informative about deserters in other states (most of you know I'm a Missourian). Heck, I can't even offer much about deserters in my home state.

I am too ignorant to comment on any of the Ohio, Illinois, Iowa or other out of state Union troops who temporarily served in Missouri. However, I can give you two examples of young boys who enlisted in the Missouri State Guard and then went on to serve in Quantrill's guerrilla force.

One was a person perhaps not known to all of you. He was John McCorckle. He fell sick in southwest Missouri and was left behind by Price's retreating army. He was captured, paroled, walked home, was then threatened with execution if he didn't join a state militia, so he went to the bush.

Another was Frank James. He's known, in one way or another, to all of you. He was with Price's State Guard at their victory at Lexington, MO. He fell sick, too, was left behind during Price's retreat, was captured, paroled, etc. etc. etc. He was forced to sign the oath of allegiance (which he undoubtedly did to save his own neck, but had no intention of honoring). He went to the bush, too.

Both men were with Quantrill in Kentucky. McCorckle managed to surrender in Kentucky and return to Missouri after the war and live an honorable live in Howard County, MO. James had his sojourn into the outlaw life, but then famously came in and surrendered to the governor, stood trial twice, was acquitted once and charges were dropped the second time. He went on to live a life that was at least peaceful and which many people considered honorable (even though he wound up doing some things we'd consider cheesy today, such as selling tours of his home place).

Okay, here's what I can't decide: Would Price have considered either man a deserter...or just another casualty? Would the Confederate government have considered either a deserter? I honestly don't know the answer to that question, but I suspect they would not have been considered deserters.

Price always wanted to get back to Missouri, too. Yet, he did what was asked of him until he finally got his chance in the autumn of 1864. He suffered a lot of "walk offs" during his retreat from Missouri and probably later, too. Those "walk offs" were undoubtedly considered deserters. What do you suppose Price thought of the boys who went back to Missouri and went to the bush? Undoubtedly, they were deserters, but those who joined guerrilla bands were still fighting. What would Price or the Confederate government have officially thought of those boys? I have no idea and that's why I pose the question. I'm hoping to receive a factual answer here, rather than personal opinions.

I know the government recognized "Partisan Rangers", but I'm not sure how it treated the boys who left some units, walked back to Missouri to join the various partisan bands. Deserting one band to join another? Does that redeem a fighter?

Complicated question, I know. I'm sure I'll hear some answers!

Based on all my readings on Mo I doubt it was an issue for the CSA. The CSA had their hands full fighting Unionist guerrillas who where by definition either desrters or draft dodgers. What could they do if a deserter went behind Union lines?
Leftyhunter

 

[Tom Elmore]

Benjamin Franklin Powelson, Orderly Sergeant, writes in his History of Co. K, 140th Pennsylvania about a deserter from his company at Gettysburg: "And one faint heart of Co. K was sifted out. George Star was missing when with our Corps we took up our march southward after Lee. And we had to report him as a deserter, under date of July 15, '63. Comrade Mounts reports that Star was seen three years after and reported himself as having traded suits with a farm lad a short distance out from Gettysburg, and gone west.

 

[Specster]

Actually, Allie, Missouri WAS invaded and occupied early in the war. After Gov. Jackson sent his nasty letter back to President Lincoln inviting him to "stick it", we were fairly well awash with regulars from Iowa, Illinois, and other states--at least for a while.

Specster, Missouri guerrillas were famous for wearing uniforms--just not the kind you're envisioning. First and foremost was the guerrilla shirt. If you've ever seen the famous death photo of Bill Anderson, that's a guerrilla shirt he's wearing. Everyone in Missouri during the war would have recognized a guerrilla shirt immediately on first sight and it definitely would have identified the wearer.

Of course, some of the guerrillas occasionally wore another kind of uniform, too--captured federal or militia uniforms. This justifiably rankled their adversaries and I can't blame you for feeling the same way.

But our own Missouri militias were known to wear a mix of civilian and uniform clothing, too, and to masquerade as guerrillas from time to time, so they weren't above reproach.

It got just pure-D crazy out here very early in the war and it stayed that war for a very long time!

In saying all that, I'm not making excuses for anyone on either side. I'm just telling you what really happened. ...and some of it happened right here in my home town.

If some of these lads wore identifying markers - I think it would be a stretch to call them uniforms, dont you think that could have been self serving, like being able to ID each other in a maylay? Further, if I few did this, how about the many others who did not?

And I agree with you 100% what was going on in Missouri and adjoining territories pre, during and post ACW was pure havoc. Its good for all when it came to and end.

 

[CSA Today]

Confederate desertion was far from infrequent. I have a whole thread on that. Perhaps Schreiber is not a great source of information on the Civil War. In theory if he writes about a subject he should tell the whole story.
Leftyhunter

I never said it was infrequent, I have quoted Civil War historian James G. Randall as writing: "Desertion at the South though less extensive than in the North, was a factor of large significance."

 

[leftyhunter]

Well, given that to join the Union army in Maryland one had to walk to a recruitment office, and that to join the Confederate army in Maryland one had to cross the Potomac and several miles of Union-controlled territory, cross the lines into Confederate territory, and then sign up, it's fairly clear why.
Of course, the Maryland state government was arrested for a reason.


If he was an officially accredited observer in some way that would be more support than the British wanted to extent to what was not yet a nation. They viewed the Confederacy as a belligerent (because the Union had made them a belligerent by declaring blockade) but not as a nation.
I'm not all that sure observers in the period had to be officially accredited, mind - you can probably look up what McClellan did in the Crimean war to find out if it was a thing at all!

Early in the war it would not of been that difficult to cross the Rappanock River. Plenty of opportunity to desert to the other side if pro Confederate Marylanders wished to do so. Plenty of Confederate soldiers deserted and joined the Union Army. Tennesseans crossed the Mountains under dangerous conditions to join the Union Army in Kentucky. Missourians willing or not crossed into Arkansas to join the Confederate Army and sometimes evaded Union Army and milita units.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

I never said it was infrequent, I have quoted Civil War historian James G. Randall as writing: "Desertion at the South though less extensive than in the North, was a factor of large significance."

Can we debate desertion on the appropriate thread?
Leftyhunter

 

[CSA Today]

Can we debate desertion on the appropriate thread?
Leftyhunter

Then why don't you? My response was to your post #7.

 

[CSA Today]

Based on all my readings on Mo I doubt it was an issue for the CSA. The CSA had their hands full fighting Unionist guerrillas who where by definition either desrters or draft dodgers. What could they do if a deserter went behind Union lines?
Leftyhunter

What about your post a while back that had a third of the Federal army tied down Confederate partisans?

 

[leftyhunter]

What about your post a while back that had a third of the Federal army tied down Confederate partisans?

True but I stated that one third of all Union regiments were at least partly involved in counterinsurgency operations. Many Unionregiments,were tied down for a few months in Missouri but by 1862 they were withdrawn and assumed conventional duties.
I pointed out that only a few Union regiments fought guerrillas full time.
Leftyhunter

 

[CSA Today]

True but I stated that one third of all Union regiments were at least partly involved in counterinsurgency operations. Many Unionregiments,were tied down for a few months in Missouri but by 1862 they were withdrawn and assumed conventional duties.
I pointed out that only a few Union regiments fought guerrillas full time.
Leftyhunter

I find it remarkable that so few Confederate partisans held down so many Federals for any length of time especially in light of your claim "the CSA had their hands full fighting Unionist guerrillas."

 

[Lost Cause]

Can we debate desertion on the appropriate thread?
Leftyhunter

The title of this thread is "Deserters."

 

[Lnwlf]

The title of this thread is "Deserters."

Lost Cause makes a good point. This is not about guerrilla warfare.

Posted as Moderator

 

[leftyhunter]

Lost Cause makes a good point. This is not about guerrilla warfare.

Posted as Moderator

I was responding to a question from @CSA Today .
Leftyhunter

 

[Lnwlf]

I was responding to a question from @CSA Today .
Leftyhunter

Yes, I know that. I also know that the quote you responded to was about guerrilla/partisan warfare, which is not the topic of discussion. The warning is for everyone that wants to stray from the subject.

 

[John S. Carter]

I have a cluster of Dickerson relatives from co. M 7th Tenn Cav (CSA) who deserted as a family group, two brothers and their father. They had first cousins with the same company who did not desert.

Presumably because the area of Lauderdale county they lived in was under Union control, they don't appear to have been pursued or prosecuted. In his regimental history of the 7th Tenn Cav, JP Young says that he will not list men who deserted on the rolls because they have forfeited the right - and in fact the deserter Dickersons don't appear there. In his memoir of the company, my relative CSO Rice is a little more charitable, stating that some men who had deserted came back to the regiment to be with the others for the surrender at Gainsville, and that they were welcomed back - which, incidentally, contradicts the often-repeated story that Forrest executed all deserters, even ones who came right back. However, he doesn't say what he thought of men who never did come back.

It doesn't appear there were lasting hard feelings after the war. The deserters all continued to live in the same community. All three died relatively young, and in one case the children were taken in by a man who had served with them.

Near the end of the war there was more desertion than any other time due to the thought that the end was near and they needed to return home to families who had been suffering.The greatest desertion for the Union was with the Emancipation .The soldier who enlisted for the salvation of the Union and to quell Southern rebellion felt betrayed when it became a slavery issue,these soldiers where not about to fight for the Negro.The basic advantage that the Lincoln war department had was the recruit of the blacks into the military and then the Irish immigrant.These were the replacements of the deserters and draft jumpers.Were there any sections of any Union states which would off sanctuary for Union jumpers or deserters?If this is wrong please to provide me the name of a book or author who deals with this topic.

 

[Northern Light]

The burnt district barely lasted a year and then the original families more or less returned. Your right COIN warfare is often based on long boring patrols with occasional sharp but short fire fights often with no need to take prisoners. You make a good point in that from all the books I read about COIN war in Mo desertion was not a problem among the MSM and the various Union Coin units. Ironically the 1st and 2nd Ar Cav USV which did a lot of COIN fighting in Mo and Ar was largely composed of CSA deserters.
Leftyhunter

Pardon my ignorance but what does COIN mean?

 

[leftyhunter]

Pardon my ignorance but what does COIN mean?

Counterinsurgency.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Near the end of the war there was more desertion than any other time due to the thought that the end was near and they needed to return home to families who had been suffering.The greatest desertion for the Union was with the Emancipation .The soldier who enlisted for the salvation of the Union and to quell Southern rebellion felt betrayed when it became a slavery issue,these soldiers where not about to fight for the Negro.The basic advantage that the Lincoln war department had was the recruit of the blacks into the military and then the Irish immigrant.These were the replacements of the deserters and draft jumpers.Were there any sections of any Union states which would off sanctuary for Union jumpers or deserters?If this is wrong please to provide me the name of a book or author who deals with this topic.

Do you have any sourced evidence that the EP caused an increase in Union desertion? We had,a,whole thread on that with no proponent of that assertion able to prove it. It would be great if evidence could be provided.
Leftyhunter

 

[Northern Light]

Counterinsurgency.
Leftyhunter

Thank you.

 

[CSA Today]

Do you have any sourced evidence that the EP caused an increase in Union desertion? We had,a,whole thread on that with no proponent of that assertion able to prove it. It would be great if evidence could be provided.
Leftyhunter

Historian James Mc Pherson doesn't blame all Federal desertion on the E.P. but does write: "Desertion rates in both armies [AOP and Grant's army] rose alarmingly. Many soldiers blamed the Emancipation Proclamation."

James M. McPherson, What They Fought For, 1861-1865, p. 63