Deserters

[Redcoat]

I have found a couple who ended up in California, but most of the deserters I am searching for, many with unique names which should assist in finding them are nowhere to be found. This suggest to me that they changed their names, or in some cases gave a false name when they enlisted.

 

[leftyhunter]

Historian James Mc Pherson doesn't blame all Federal desertion on the E.P. but does write: "Desertion rates in both armies [AOP and Grant's army] rose alarmingly. Many soldiers blamed the Emancipation Proclamation."

James M. McPherson, What They Fought For, 1861-1865, p. 63

We would need a chart that shows reported desertion on a monthly basis to see if there was an actual increase if desertion in January 1863.
Then we have to have a chart to show Union enlistments since some of the men who deserted may of enlisted later.
If desertion was massive in early 1863 due to the EP then why was 1863 a disastrous year for the Confederate Army?
Leftyhunter

 

[Northern Light]

We would need a chart that shows reported desertion on a monthly basis to see if there was an actual increase if desertion in January 1863.
Then we have to have a chart to show Union enlistments since some of the men who deserted may of enlisted later.
If desertion was massive in early 1863 due to the EP then why was 1863 a disastrous year for the Confederate Army?
Leftyhunter

I think you might have to go back to when the preliminary EP was announced in Sept. to get a true sense of the rate of desertion due to the idea of emancipation.

 

[huskerblitz]

As @leftyhunter already knows from that other thread no one has found a breakdown for monthly desertion rates. So while it cannot be proven, he also is very aware he cannot disprove it either.

 

[huskerblitz]

And furthermore, we would have to have some sort of exit poll to prove or disprove. And we all know that didn't happen either.

 

[Nathanb1]

This is Nathaniel Judson Powers, who originally joined the Confederate army. After the Great Hanging in Gainesville, he stayed in the army for a while. It's been suggested in at least one researcher's book that he and another young man might have sneaked back to Gainesville and assassinated one of the main players in the hanging--where Nathaniel's brother James was killed. Nathaniel was my great-grandfather's older brother.

Later, Nathaniel deserted with his horse and rifle (an Enfield) and joined up with the Union forces. He became a "Galvanized Yankee" and spent the rest of the war in the west, fighting Indians--I believe Arizona. He left behind a wife and family, who had gone to Comanche County with the rest of the Powers clan. As far as I know, there was never a divorce. He later married twice and had a large family before his death in 1913.

Worked for him.

 

[leftyhunter]

I think you might have to go back to when the preliminary EP was announced in Sept. to get a true sense of the rate of desertion due to the idea of emancipation.

With our a monthly break down we can only speculate. Supporters of the idea that the EP caused a huge increase in desertions have so far not answered the question why did the Confederacy in 1863 have such a disastrous year?
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

As @leftyhunter already knows from that other thread no one has found a breakdown for monthly desertion rates. So while it cannot be proven, he also is very aware he cannot disprove it either.

I never made the assertion that the EP caused a spike in Union desertions. Does who make such an assertion have the logical burden of proving their point.
Leftyhunter

 

[huskerblitz]

I never made the assertion that the EP caused a spike in Union desertions. Does who make such an assertion have the logical burden of proving their point.
Leftyhunter

I replied to your previous post about needing the chart. No one has been able to locate one yet you bring it up as a suggestion it was definitively not a factor. You know there is no chart so no reason to make the suggestion. Your burden is to prove it wasn't. You have failed to do that. The battlefield results are not necessarily a result of Union deserters. You're building a red herring chase.

 

[leftyhunter]

I replied to your previous post about needing the chart. No one has been able to locate one yet you bring it up as a suggestion it was definitively not a factor. You know there is no chart so no reason to make the suggestion. Your burden is to prove it wasn't. You have failed to do that. The battlefield results are not necessarily a result of Union deserters. You're building a red herring chase.

Logic dictates that the burden of proving the assertion that the EP resulted in an increase in Union desertions rests entirely on the person making that assertion. It us not my burden to prove such an assertion.
Leftyhunter

 

[huskerblitz]

Logic dictates that the burden of proving the assertion that the EP resulted in an increase in Union desertions rests entirely on the person making that assertion. It us not my burden to prove such an assertion.
Leftyhunter

It is if you are claiming the opposite is true, as you are above, then the burden is yours. And citing battlefield losses as evidence does not support it. There are too many variables in battles to make a suggestion like that viable.

 

[CSA Today]

We would need a chart that shows reported desertion on a monthly basis to see if there was an actual increase if desertion in January 1863.
Then we have to have a chart to show Union enlistments since some of the men who deserted may of enlisted later.
If desertion was massive in early 1863 due to the EP then why was 1863 a disastrous year for the Confederate Army?
Leftyhunter

Such a chart may exist, according to J.G. Randall and David Donald, The Civil War and Reconstruction (footnotes pp.229-230) the desertion rate among Federal troops were 4,647 a month in 1863 and 7,333 monthly in 1864. In 1864 7,333 men would have been the equivalent of one large division or two average size divisions.

 

[leftyhunter]

Such a chart may exist, according to J.G. Randall and David Donald, The Civil War and Reconstruction (footnotes pp.229-230) the desertion rate among Federal troops were 4,647 a month in 1863 and 7,333 monthly in 1864. In 1864 7,333 men would have been the equivalent of one large division or two average size divisions.

Which does not prove the EP was a factor in Union desertions. If it was then desertion rates should be higher in 1863 then one year later. With such a large desertion rate the Confederacy should of easily won unless they to had a high desertion rate.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

It is if you are claiming the opposite is true, as you are above, then the burden is yours. And citing battlefield losses as evidence does not support it. There are too many variables in battles to make a suggestion like that viable.

I don't understand your logic. If someone makes an assertion they should offer proof. All I ask is for proof that the EP caused a huge increase in desertions.
Leftyhunter

 

[huskerblitz]

I don't understand your logic. If someone makes an assertion they should offer proof. All I ask is for proof that the EP caused a huge increase in desertions.
Leftyhunter

Yes. But this is getting cyclical. You go on to use the same suggestion as proof there is no connection. You don't know that. And numbers alone cannot answer the question because, as we have already been over this, men left for a variety of reason and the vast majority gave no reason for leaving their post. As to the numbers above, after the war entered it's 4th year we know several men left the Union army. We can guess some got tired of the war, some missed home, some refused to serve longer then their initial enlistment (1 year vs 3 year, etc.). But again, we have been over this thoroughly before.

 

[leftyhunter]

Yes. But this is getting cyclical. You go on to use the same suggestion as proof there is no connection. You don't know that. And numbers alone cannot answer the question because, as we have already been over this, men left for a variety of reason and the vast majority gave no reason for leaving their post. As to the numbers above, after the war entered it's 4th year we know several men left the Union army. We can guess some got tired of the war, some missed home, some refused to serve longer then their initial enlistment (1 year vs 3 year, etc.). But again, we have been over this thoroughly before.

It's cyclical because I am merely questioning an assertion. Show me others some sourced proof and you might be able to prove that the EP causued a spike in Union desertions.
So far no proof and we had a whole thread on this subject. It's not my burden to prove an assertion it's the one who made it.
Yes desertion occurs for many reasons. Yes it was prevalent on both sides.
However Confederate deserters where more likely to defect to the Union Army or become Unionist guerrillas or freelance bandits or freelance bandits. I have shown many sources,about that.
Leftyhunter

 

[CSA Today]

Which does not prove the EP was a factor in Union desertions. If it was then desertion rates should be higher in 1863 then one year later. With such a large desertion rate the Confederacy should of easily won unless they to had a high desertion rate.
Leftyhunter

It is one thing to say the EP was a factor for Union desertions, it is quite another thing to say it was a cause of massive desertions. I know of no historian who claims the latter.

You might want to consider as a more relevant factor that the enlistments in the US military exceeded the entire free male population of the 11 Confederate States in 1860.

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html
http://www.civil-war.net/pages/troops_furnished_losses.html

 

[leftyhunter]

It is one thing to say the EP was a factor for Union desertions, it is quite another thing to say it was a cause of massive desertions. I know of no historian who claims the latter.

You might want to consider as a more relevant factor that the enlistments in the US military exceeded the entire free male population of the 11 Confederate States in 1860.

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html
http://www.civil-war.net/pages/troops_furnished_losses.html

Yet has I already showed in the thread " by what metric is the Confederate soldier superior " The average manpower superiority ratio of the Union Army to the Confederate Army was only 1.86 to one. If morale in the Union Army was so bad then the Confederacy should of easily won unless they to had a high desertion rate. Which in fact they did.
Leftyhunter

 

[CSA Today]

Counterinsurgency, logistics ,building fortifications, recovering or dying from illnees,and wounds.
Leftyhunter

You don't think the Confederates did any of these things?

 

[leftyhunter]

You don't think the Confederates did any of these things?

Actually a good point. Yes they did. On the othe hand if Randall's figures are correct that plus 7k Union soldiers deserted each month in 1864 then over 84k less Union soldiers should of helped the Confederacy win. Most likely this was offset by Confederate desertion.
Leftyhunter