CSS Virginia help needed

[Kevin Martin]

I've been terribly absent with updates lately. But I have spent the last 5 days applying all these pieces of basswood "tiles" to the hull. It takes an equal amount of time to apply them as it does to cut them all. I have fashioned a small cutting jig that has made thing faster and accurate.When both sides finished I will have used over 140 feet of basswood strip. That's hull only and does not include the decks. On Friday I drive from Chicago to South Carolina to pick up a hull I commissioned with another builder, of the USS New Ironsides. Pretty excited about that one!

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I think we can excuse you for lack of updates,
140 feet of basswood strip (hull only) ?

Yes Sir, you do get a pass !

 

[OwenRichards]

OMG, wow!

 

[nino]

Kevin,

You have done terrific work on the detail and the V-grove plastic was an excellent solution for the armor plating. Thank you for sharing the build. I hope you will post more.


To All,

I am a new member and recently found this thread and I thought it would be good to resurrect it since it has such a wealth of information and it reports on a very enjoyable scratch-build report. I hope more members will review it since we are in the Month of the Monitor and Virginia confrontation.


I realize this CSS Virginia Model will be post March 9th, so my comments and questions below will not pertain to Kevin's Virginia model. Now, My concerns…


I recall reading of a Howitzer on the deck on the 8th of March and that the quarter port shutters (4 of them) were installed and were made up of 2 pieces, possibly hinged at the bottom. There were no shutters on the sides or Bow and Stern ports however. Is this believed to be the state of the ship on the 8th of March?


I also read that 2 of the Guns were not on board the first day of battle. Can anyone set me straight on this report? I read this in "The Merrimac" by Alan B. Flanders, page 72. My suspicion is the 2 smallest calibers, located amidships, would be vacant as they could/would have been the last 2 lowered down to the deck because of limited room. Is there any other information on the number of Guns present on the 8th?


I believe all the guns were on board on the 9th for the meeting with the Monitor. The Ram was believed lost upon ramming the USS Cumberland so no ram would be on the ship after the 8th of March. Any model depicting the Virginia post-battle on the 8th should only show a Bow Stem, probably damaged. Am I correct in these statements?


I have no information as to the breakwater on the bow being planked over. I always thought it was planked over but that there would be a small edge or Bulwark on it. This Edge would be valuable to hold securely all the "pig iron" placed there as additional weight to attain the proper waterline. Is there any consensus for this? I do recall the mention of a crew member up to their knees (or deeper) in water when handling ropes at the bow. Could be they were on the outside of the breakwater or does this prove the breakwater was not planked–over.


The Stern breakwater status is not proven for the battle as far as I can tell. It seems logical to have it but was it in place on the 8-9th of March? Pig Iron weights were reported to be placed on the stern also but how and where are big questions. If iron weights were there, as stated by several sources, I cannot imagine them placed over the Rudder and Propeller area. If on the stern aft of the armored case-mate, they could interfere with the Rudder operating chains. Any ideas?

I do have Ironclad Down, an indispensable book if attempting to build a Replica of the CSS Virgina or at least to get as close as Historical records might allow. It is excellent on construction details and 1st hand accounts but information on how the ship looked on the 8th and 9th of March, 1862, is still a bit of conjecture. The armor plates shown in the book really cause one to realize all the models of the Virginia are wrong.

Thoughts and Comments or References to records that might make these issues clearer would be very helpful. Thanks.

Nino.

 

[rebelatsea]

Kevin,

You have done terrific work on the detail and the V-grove plastic was an excellent solution for the armor plating. Thank you for sharing the build. I hope you will post more.


To All,

I am a new member and recently found this thread and I thought it would be good to resurrect it since it has such a wealth of information and it reports on a very enjoyable scratch-build report. I hope more members will review it since we are in the Month of the Monitor and Virginia confrontation.


I realize this CSS Virginia Model will be post March 9th, so my comments and questions below will not pertain to Kevin's Virginia model. Now, My concerns…


I recall reading of a Howitzer on the deck on the 8th of March and that the quarter port shutters (4 of them) were installed and were made up of 2 pieces, possibly hinged at the bottom. There were no shutters on the sides or Bow and Stern ports however. Is this believed to be the state of the ship on the 8th of March?


I also read that 2 of the Guns were not on board the first day of battle. Can anyone set me straight on this report? I read this in "The Merrimac" by Alan B. Flanders, page 72. My suspicion is the 2 smallest calibers, located amidships, would be vacant as they could/would have been the last 2 lowered down to the deck because of limited room. Is there any other information on the number of Guns present on the 8th?


I believe all the guns were on board on the 9th for the meeting with the Monitor. The Ram was believed lost upon ramming the USS Cumberland so no ram would be on the ship after the 8th of March. Any model depicting the Virginia post-battle on the 8th should only show a Bow Stem, probably damaged. Am I correct in these statements?


I have no information as to the breakwater on the bow being planked over. I always thought it was planked over but that there would be a small edge or Bulwark on it. This Edge would be valuable to hold securely all the "pig iron" placed there as additional weight to attain the proper waterline. Is there any consensus for this? I do recall the mention of a crew member up to their knees (or deeper) in water when handling ropes at the bow. Could be they were on the outside of the breakwater or does this prove the breakwater was not planked–over.


The Stern breakwater status is not proven for the battle as far as I can tell. It seems logical to have it but was it in place on the 8-9th of March? Pig Iron weights were reported to be placed on the stern also but how and where are big questions. If iron weights were there, as stated by several sources, I cannot imagine them placed over the Rudder and Propeller area. If on the stern aft of the armored case-mate, they could interfere with the Rudder operating chains. Any ideas?

I do have Ironclad Down, an indispensable book if attempting to build a Replica of the CSS Virgina or at least to get as close as Historical records might allow. It is excellent on construction details and 1st hand accounts but information on how the ship looked on the 8th and 9th of March, 1862, is still a bit of conjecture. The armor plates shown in the book really cause one to realize all the models of the Virginia are wrong.

Thoughts and Comments or References to records that might make these issues clearer would be very helpful. Thanks.

Nino.

Hi Nino, the quarter port shutters were on board but not mounted, as they were found to be useless.
All guns were aboard when she went into action, except we believe the howitzers. The concensus on the foredeck breakwater is that it was indeed planked over. Pig iron ballast was enclosed between the bulwarks, which were the height of the gunport sill. If you think about it, no other arrangement would have been practical. open bulwarks would mean a large amount of water sloshing about and coming through the port . There are no reports of such happening .

The wonderful Tom Freeman painting gives I think the best portrait of her going into action.

 

[rebelatsea]

Hi Nino, the quarter port shutters were on board but not mounted, as they were found to be useless.
All guns were aboard when she went into action, except we believe the howitzers. The concensus on the foredeck breakwater is that it was indeed planked over. Pig iron ballast was enclosed between the bulwarks, which were the height of the gunport sill. If you think about it, no other arrangement would have been practical. open bulwarks would mean a large amount of water sloshing about and coming through the port . There are no reports of such happening .

The wonderful Tom Freeman painting gives I think the best portrait of her going into action.
View attachment 180199

Tom does show the two piece shutters in position, frankly I leave it to you to decide, it's your model.

 

[rebelatsea]

Tom does show the two piece shutters in position, frankly I leave it to you to decide, it's your model.

BTW the full rigged ship above Virginia's quarterdeck is USS Plymouth, taken virtually intact. The CSN were preparing to take her to Richmond, but I have never been able to discover what for.

 

[nino]

Gentlemem, Thank you very much.
I have a load of reading to do encompassing the Congressional Serial set of that time period as well as the book "The Merrimac" by Alan Flandars and various letters from Brooke , Porter and Porters son. I will also re-read Ironclad Down with an eye to record specifics. There is also a terrific report titled "Naval Architecture Analysis of the Civil War Ironclad CSS Virginia" which states the over all length of the vessel to be 278.8 feet. I will read this with interest as the Virginia's length has been stated as anywhere from 262 thru 281 feet and up. It will be nice to pin it down.

I am not a scholar but I do like to read. I am interested in getting History right but my modeling skills to not transfer that desire into being capable of a real replica. I'm still looking for a CSS Virginia kit that can be fixed to look more like what my reading and research says it should. I now have a further dilemma in choosing a specific "day" to portray her in.
As if there aren't enough problems in the world....

Thanks again.

I hope, if I fine evidence that contradicts previous findings, that we can all enjoy our Hobby and History even more.

Nino

 

[rebelatsea]

You are very welcome Nino. I've been studying the CSN ironclad & iron protected vessels for over 30 years and am still learning.
I have a 200 plus page manuscript incorporating plans and potted history of each vessel, actual and planned. I have twice frozen it and looked for a publisher and each time have had to stop as much new information has come to light.
I often share stuff here, and get torpedoed pretty **** quick if I put up rubbish too!

Dimensions and tonnages in this era are a nightmare, often lengths and beam are given without defining whether they are over all, between perpendiculars, waterline or on deck.
Widths often or never indicate whether they are beam internal, extreme over outside planking, or with some paddle steamers, over the boxes.
Draught could either be at bow, stern mean or maximum.
Tonnage - well- there was no such thing as standard, although it was evolving, nearly every country, and every port had a different way of measuring it seems.
Oh and beware of speeds, the nautical knot was well established, but riverine speeds are often mph without saying so.

It doesn't help that errors are reprinted over and again even by reputed authors, copied from what went before.
In the model world consequently, some otherwise cracking models are wrongly scaled, an example being the so called "Richmond class", no such thing in reality, they were based on the 150ft pp plan but actually measured between 172ft - 180 ft oa x 42ft - 46ft ex, 12ft - 14ft draught. some excellent models of the basic plan are out there, but 15oft x 35ft!

As regards CSS Virginia, her length overall was 275ft 3 inches, but if you can prove 278ft 10inches fine. I'm always happy to learn new things.
You won't find a better site than this for information exchange, there are many great guys and ladies here with access to a Mount Everest of stuff. Enjoy.

 

[nino]

Thanks rebelatsea.

I expect I'll be picking you brain as I try to make a better CSS Virginia. I did not intend to hi-jack this thread . I am trying to get my Grand kids interested in Model building. We have done a few things together and I am currently trying to get small Monitor and "Merrimac" (Read: Virginia) models together for the oldest as he gets ready to cover the subject in school. In the mean time I got interested, then discouraged, and finally immensely curious while doing some reading which turned into a bit of amateur research. That is how I came across a 2016 report titled: " Naval Architecture Analysis of the Civil War Ironclad CSS Virginia". I am not even close to being a layman in regards to the methodology they used but there are some strikingly good points. Of course it is based on previously published data since there is no ship.

By the way, my small "dissertation" at Fine Sale Modeler uses the 275 ft measurement to obtain the approximate scale of the Virginia model kits. (link: http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/92193.aspx?page=2 )

The Link for the naval Architecture... site

https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/handle/10919/74944

The Report:

https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/bitstream/handle/10919/74944/Marickovich_NE_T_2017.pdf?sequence=3

Nino

P.S. Thanks Again for the responses. This is a great Forum!

P.P.S. Long Live Andy Hall!

 

[rebelatsea]

Thanks rebelatsea.

I expect I'll be picking you brain as I try to make a better CSS Virginia. I did not intend to hi-jack this thread . I am trying to get my Grand kids interested in Model building. We have done a few things together and I am currently trying to get small Monitor and "Merrimac" (Read: Virginia) models together for the oldest as he gets ready to cover the subject in school. In the mean time I got interested, then discouraged, and finally immensely curious while doing some reading which turned into a bit of amateur research. That is how I came across a 2016 report titled: " Naval Architecture Analysis of the Civil War Ironclad CSS Virginia". I am not even close to being a layman in regards to the methodology they used but there are some strikingly good points. Of course it is based on previously published data since there is no ship.

By the way, my small "dissertation" at Fine Sale Modeler uses the 275 ft measurement to obtain the approximate scale of the Virginia model kits. (link: http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/92193.aspx?page=2 )

The Link for the naval Architecture... site

https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/handle/10919/74944

The Report:

https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/bitstream/handle/10919/74944/Marickovich_NE_T_2017.pdf?sequence=3

Nino

P.S. Thanks Again for the responses. This is a great Forum!

P.P.S. Long Live Andy Hall!

Thanks for those links Nino. I expect you will become quite at home here.

 

[Tut11]

@rebelatsea , would love to see that manuscript in print one day. Please make sure it never gets destroyed if something (God forbid) happens to you.

 

[rebelatsea]

@rebelatsea , would love to see that manuscript in print one day. Please make sure it never gets destroyed if something (God forbid) happens to you.

I've been let down by one well known publisher who would have produced a wonderful volume at prices no one can afford, and another equally well known who just f*****d me about. I might try Seaforth but I'm wary now.

 

[Tut11]

I've been let down by one well known publisher who would have produced a wonderful volume at prices no one can afford, and another equally well known who just f*****d me about. I might try Seaforth but I'm wary now.

@rebelatsea , wondering if you could put it on a CD with your own formatting and sell the CD's for reference, just a thought. Your accumulated knowledge on the ironclads I'm sure would be a excepted very well in a CD format if that would be easier for you than dealing with publishers. I for one would purchase it in a heart beat.

 

[rebelatsea]

@rebelatsea , wondering if you could put it on a CD with your own formatting and sell the CD's for reference, just a thought. Your accumulated knowledge on the ironclads I'm sure would be a excepted very well in a CD format if that would be easier for you than dealing with publishers. I for one would purchase it in a heart beat.

That's an interesting thought.