CS ironclad construction

[CowCavalry]

If the construction of the ironclads had not been interfered with then it would not have been happening in the Confederacy. More importantly, with no comprehensive strategic planing of any kind taking place a few more ironclads making random sallies would have been meaningless. As at the Battle of Memphis where the CS ram captains attacked as they saw fit… in fact never had a single meeting to share plans, intel or tactics.

On the Union side the commanders such as Admirals Farragut, Porter & Foote were brilliant. They cooperated enthusiastically with Grant & Sherman. The army / navy campaigns were coordinated seamlessly. It wouldn't have made any material difference had a few more ironclads been set forth Don Quixote like to tilt with Union flotillas.

How fortunate that all the bumbling, inept, navel commanders and officers joined the Confederacy and all the geniuses joined the USN

 

[atlantis]

The David torpedo boats how seaworthy; the water can get rough in a Bay.

 

[Trooper "D"]

I do not have an informed answer as to Admiral Porter's intentions. However, the Union engineering elements had surprisingly sophisticated salvage assets. The one that impressed me the most was a dedicated air pumping boat coupled with bladders. Riverboats that had run aground or been snagged were floated by inflating the bladders. They could then be towed to a landing for salvage or repair.

Given the whacky rubber coating & some other design flaws, just putting a torch to the thing wouldn't be all that bad a plan, just saying.

Sounds similar to Ol' Abe's design for freeing grounded boats.

 

[Trooper "D"]

This is one of many working drawings of my bridge, pardon my sign View attachment 579311

Nice drawing. Sign is ok also.

 

[rebelatsea]

Nelson Tift, one of the Albany, Ga founders, was an industrialist from Conn. He built several factories in Albany, when the war started he moved to Savannah to work on gunboats. Some say he became more southern that most southerners.

Nelson Tift (1810-1891) - Find a Grave Memorial

U.S. Congressman. Moving to Albany, Georgia, in 1830, he engaged in the mercantile business and opened a saw mill. In 1840, he was elected a as judge for the Inferior Court of Baker County, Georgia, serving until 1849. He also was elected Colonel of the Baker County Militia. Entering politics...

www.findagrave.com

Nelson was the industrial brain, his bother Asa was the one with some knowledge of ships, and more importantly of names in the nautical side of New Orleans hence the involvement of naval architect W.T. Smith (who was English, and had worked for the Sardinian Navy on their new steam frigates ).

 

[rebelatsea]

But that was the point I was making - they had not got the knowledge and skills base. There was nothing to work with. Any Northern crafttsmen - and they were quite a few - had 'disappeared' on sessession. The local men had volunteered for service and were off. The major sea ports were under blockade and all that was left was the riverside yards - including a number built up from scratch. As for design, most were based on the Crimean floating batteries of Sevastopol, mainly bcaue there was little room for manoever on rivers - even the Mississippi. A turning circle was generally in the order of 500 yards or more. (It is also why tugs and ferries often kept their sidewheels - most could contra-rotate and turn the boat around almost on the spot!)

If iron plate was not available anything would do from rails to heavy timber to cotton bales - they were better than nothing. The hulls were generally unarmored since they were low freeboard wooden hulls, often with very shallow draft due to their river use. That is also the main reason they were given rams - the bow is the stongest point.

Oh dear, where do I start ?

You basically ignored my whole post. The CSN yards DID have the knowledge and skills, what went missing was the white labour force which had volunteered, been commandeered by the army - or in some cases ran off.
There were a minor number of inland yards created from nothing, but they had a nucleus of men who knew river craft.

CSN ironclads WERE NOT BASED ON CRIMEAN FLOATING BATTERIES, and no such proposal was ever made or if it was I have not been able to locate it.
The designs that incorporated an armoured knuckle naturally ended in a projection at both ends, which could be used as a ram. It was not designed as such. However this was not universal and all Constructors produced designs without rams, some of which were under construction or completed.
William Grave's designs had a knuckle and a ram which was part of the hull, not added.
Designs which incorporated the "Pearce" knuckle had bows and stern which were above water, and therefore not rams.

Neither the 1846 nor the 1861 plans by John L Porter had a ram and neither did John M Brooke's Plan (on Which CSS Virginia was based ). I do not know who suggested or made the ram for CSS Virginia, and we do not know what it looked like, despite various purported depictions, merely that it was attached to the stem post.

All purpose designed ironclads had waterline protection as did iron protected vessels such as the Morgan type with a central citadel, and CSS Selma.

River boat conversions were given strengthened bows specifically for ramming, they had no protection below the waterline, what protection they were given was over engines and machinery and sometimes formed a casemate in which guns were mounted. Such protection was usually a combination of thin plate iron, thick timbers, or compressed cotton bales, and as time went on the builders got quite creative, culminating in CSS Webb.

 

[G Low]

Nelson was the industrial brain, his bother Asa was the one with some knowledge of ships, and more importantly of names in the nautical side of New Orleans hence the involvement of naval architect W.T. Smith (who was English, and had worked for the Sardinian Navy on their new steam frigates ).

You are correct (as usual) Asa lived in key west and he actually built the house Hemingway lived in. His father moved to Key West in 1825. Must have been sick of cold weather. He and his brothers financed a ship in Mobile and had to blow it up to keep it from getting into Yankee hands. Asa refused to refuel a Yankee ship during the war and was expelled from key west .

 

[atlantis]

Were bow rams a waste of time and iron.

 

[CowCavalry]

Oh dear, where do I start ?

You basically ignored my whole post.

This is usually the case, when confronted with facts that don't fit a specific agenda.

 

[Piedone]

Were bow rams a waste of time and iron.

Please read post #46 - the question is answered therein.

 

[rebelatsea]

You are correct (as usual) Asa lived in key west and he actually built the house Hemingway lived in. His father moved to Key West in 1825. Must have been sick of cold weather. He and his brothers financed a ship in Mobile and had to blow it up to keep it from getting into Yankee hands. Asa refused to refuel a Yankee ship during the war and was expelled from key west .

LOL, thanks, I'm not always right. After 30+ years , one book and countless articles here and elsewhere I'm still learning,
The discovery that W.T. Smith was English and had worked for the Sardinians was a recent discovery ! He was a member of the family that founded the bookshop chain here in England, and related to a future 1st (Civil) Lord of the Admiralty.

 

[atlantis]

LOL, thanks, I'm not always right. After 30+ years , one book and countless articles here and elsewhere I'm still learning,
The discovery that W.T. Smith was English and had worked for the Sardinians was a recent discovery ! He was a member of the family that founded the bookshop chain here in England, and related to a future 1st (Civil) Lord of the Admiralty.

Was the Sardinian navy the basis for the future Italian navy?

 

[rebelatsea]

Was the Sardinian navy the basis for the future Italian navy?

Indeed, six big steam frigates and one converted two decker, formed the nucleus of the "new" navy - and they were all present at the Battle Of Lissa in 1866.

 

[Piedone]

Indeed, six big steam frigates and one converted two decker, formed the nucleus of the "new" navy - and they were all present at the Battle Of Lissa in 1866.

This is absolutely correct regarding the ships - but the navy itself was a combination of the sardinian navy and the navy of the Kingdom of both Sicilies (with two naval academies in Genoa and Naples - and a mixture of both officer corps)

 

[rebelatsea]

This is absolutely correct regarding the ships - but the navy itself was a combination of the sardinian navy and the navy of the Kingdom of both Sicilies (with two naval academies in Genoa and Naples - and a mixture of both officer corps)

It was, and the Neapolitan Navy vessels

• Borbone 46 (1860) - Renamed "Garibaldi" 3390t
• Farnese 54 - Renamed Italia 6058t
• Gaeta 54 3917t

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I should have known, I have been to that museum.
That's an interesting museum, you don't think of sea ports that far inland.

From my understanding, this vessel was built to protect the important Confederate depot at Columbus,Georgia ...with a secondary mission of possibly breaking the Union blockade in the gulf.

This ironclad was massive and well armed ... but completed too late to have any effect on the outcome of the War.

When I toured the museum, I asked one of the curators what happened to the iron plating ?
He told me most of the iron plates were recovered, but not feasible for the display. He said the iron plates are stored in an off site warehouse for possible use in the future.

Here's an interesting video about the CSS Jackson:

CSS Jackson at the National Civil War Naval Museum

Jeff Seymour toured the CSS Jackson, a Civil War era ironclad ram built in Columbus, Georgia, and talked about the city's importance to the Confederacy during the Civil War. Mr. Seymour spoke about how the ship was designed and explained how General Wilson's Raiders caused its demise. C-SPAN's...

www.c-span.org

 

[Rhea Cole]

From my understanding, this vessel was built to protect the important Confederate depot at Columbus,Georgia ...with a secondary mission of possibly breaking the Union blockade in the gulf.

This ironclad was massive and well armed ... but completed too late to have any effect on the outcome of the War.

When I toured the museum, I asked one of the curators what happened to the iron plating ?
He told me most of the iron plates were recovered, but not feasible for the display. He said the iron plates are stored in an off site warehouse for possible use in the future.

Here's an interesting video about the CSS Jackson:

CSS Jackson at the National Civil War Naval Museum

Jeff Seymour toured the CSS Jackson, a Civil War era ironclad ram built in Columbus, Georgia, and talked about the city's importance to the Confederacy during the Civil War. Mr. Seymour spoke about how the ship was designed and explained how General Wilson's Raiders caused its demise. C-SPAN's...

www.c-span.org

General Wilson's blitz showed what little was left of the Confederate military.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I suppose rams were a three thousand year old technology whose time had come.

Link

https://ancient-greece.org/piraeus-archaeological-museum-49/

 

[Old Soldier]

View attachment 581082

I suppose rams were a three thousand year old technology whose time had come.

Link

https://ancient-greece.org/piraeus-archaeological-museum-49/

"...whose time had come" It's time had been and gone. Ramming was the primary method of attack for ships in the Eastern Mediterranean from 400BC to 400AD. The fact that all warships had oars, as well as inefficient sails, meant you could not get near them and archers - the only 'broadside weapon' available - could only hit those on deck so the preferred method of attack was to get upwind of them and used the ships weight and momentum to smash through the oars and into the hull and enabled boarding. It worked quite well then. It died out because ships relied more on sail and needed no oars - and were taken by boarding - an almighty fight on deck. Then cannon appeared. The technology and tactics were forgotten.

Given that information, you can see why ramming had a 'second coming' when ironclads were introduced. Cannon fire had a minimal effect on the visible superstructure and if there is no visible hull or crew to hit with cannon, what else can you do? Greek fire would have worked - if only we knew how it was made. Then they added the 'spar torpedo' - a long pole with a barbed explosive and a fuze on the nose attached to the bow (not a self-propelled one like today). It stuck to the hull and was detonated remotely. Ramming went with a bit more of a bang!

BTW - The 'ram' - the keel projecting in front of the bow - persisted only because it eased the flow of water around the ship making it more efficient. It was discovered by accident in the design of a fast torpedo ram for the Royal Navy, an early form of torpedo boat* launching Whitworth self-propelled torpedoes, in the 1870s. It was the 'door' for the bow torpedo tube It was used for breaking through booms and barrages to attack anchored fleets at night. The advent of quick-firing and easily traversed guns made it and that concept obsolete. Only one was built - the victim of evolving technology.

HMS Polythemus bow ram/torpedo tube

* the development = torpedo boat - torpedo gunboat - torpedo boat destroyer = destroyer (combination with gun and torpedo).

 

[rebelatsea]

From my understanding, this vessel was built to protect the important Confederate depot at Columbus,Georgia ...with a secondary mission of possibly breaking the Union blockade in the gulf.

This ironclad was massive and well armed ... but completed too late to have any effect on the outcome of the War.

When I toured the museum, I asked one of the curators what happened to the iron plating ?
He told me most of the iron plates were recovered, but not feasible for the display. He said the iron plates are stored in an off site warehouse for possible use in the future.

Here's an interesting video about the CSS Jackson:

CSS Jackson at the National Civil War Naval Museum

Jeff Seymour toured the CSS Jackson, a Civil War era ironclad ram built in Columbus, Georgia, and talked about the city's importance to the Confederacy during the Civil War. Mr. Seymour spoke about how the ship was designed and explained how General Wilson's Raiders caused its demise. C-SPAN's...

www.c-span.org

The plan of the ship by Robert Holcombe, which I have an original copy of from Bob, showed a conventional rounded stern. Then some years later, after Bob had retired from the Curator's post, the Museum decided that it had the same porpoise stern as the "Wilmington". I pointed out that the vessel remains did NOT fit that configuration ("Wilmington" was a conversion from a Porter 189ft pp plan with the "porpoise bit added). Eventually they reluctantly agreed.

Received wisdom is that Jackson was a rebuild of a centre wheel ironclad which Lt Augustus McLoughlin (spelling?) insisted be called Muscogee after the local Native Americans. When John L porter arrived as the vessel was under "reconstruction" he peremptorily told the Lt "Your ship is called Jackson" - and that was that.

Porter is credited with the design of the centre wheeler , but there are so many differences between a Porter ironclad and the Jackson that I think it was Chief Engineer James H Warner's project as completed. the hull bears a distinct resemblance to his plan for a monitor type turretship..
The photograph of her afloat after launching was taken in December 1864.