CS ironclad construction

[atlantis]

There appears to be a lot of interference with those actually charged with constructing CS ironclads resulting in changes. Question without this interference would the ironclads have been better.

 

[Piedone]

There appears to be a lot of interference with those actually charged with constructing CS ironclads resulting in changes. Question without this interference would the ironclads have been better.

Could you please elaborate this point a bit more?
Interference by whom?

 

[rebelatsea]

Secretary Mallory certainly interfered in the construction of CSS Mississippi, but when the Tifts, and Messrs Ivens and CLark wrote to him with comments and suggestions he ignored them or at least didn't reply so they carried on with projects without telling him.
During construction of the Mississippi and the Yazoo Monster he sent missives to the constructors to take whatever measures and make any alterations they felt necessary to get vessels into service with all dispatch.

To his credit John L Porter (who wasn't actually appointed Chief Constructor until June 1863) signed off on plans, and left the individual constructors to get on with it.

 

[atlantis]

Secretary Mallory certainly interfered in the construction of CSS Mississippi, but when the Tifts, and Messrs Ivens and CLark wrote to him with comments and suggestions he ignored them or at least didn't reply so they carried on with projects without telling him.
During construction of the Mississippi and the Yazoo Monster he sent missives to the constructors to take whatever measures and make any alterations they felt necessary to get vessels into service with all dispatch.

To his credit John L Porter (who wasn't actually appointed Chief Constructor until June 1863) signed off on plans, and left the individual constructors to get on with it.

Didn't Buchannan interfere with Warner for ironclads stationed in Alabama?

 

[rebelatsea]

Didn't Buchannan interfere with Warner for ironclads stationed in Alabama?

Yes but it wasn't James H Warner. He was Chief Engineer at Columbus. Joseph Pearce was Constructor in charge of CSS Tennessee at Mobile, He bullied Pearce, calling him "a perfect old woman" - the poor man was severely ill. Buchanan also refused a request by Anderson & Montgomery and the yard manager at Montgomery who requested assistance with the second Nashville type under construction there.

When John L Porter arrived on a tour of inspection, Buchanan complained about Pearce and wanted him replaced. JLP told him the nearest constructor was his brother Sydney who was at Oven Bluff. Buchanan called Sydney a drunkard ( he may have had an alcohol problem but he was a gifted constructor) and wouldn't hear of it, so JLP asked William Wag(g)ner to come from Charleston to Montgomery, He also telegraphed Mallory asking for Buchanan to be removed as unfit for command. I cannot find any response, and of course Buchanan took the Mobile squadron to defeat, so it became academic anyway.
I don't know for sure but I'm guessing that Porter possibly wanted Commodore Duncan Ingraham as Buchanan's replacement.

 

[Rhea Cole]

If the construction of the ironclads had not been interfered with then it would not have been happening in the Confederacy. More importantly, with no comprehensive strategic planing of any kind taking place a few more ironclads making random sallies would have been meaningless. As at the Battle of Memphis where the CS ram captains attacked as they saw fit… in fact never had a single meeting to share plans, intel or tactics.

On the Union side the commanders such as Admirals Farragut, Porter & Foote were brilliant. They cooperated enthusiastically with Grant & Sherman. The army / navy campaigns were coordinated seamlessly. It wouldn't have made any material difference had a few more ironclads been set forth Don Quixote like to tilt with Union flotillas.

 

[Piedone]

If the construction of the ironclads had not been interfered with then it would not have been happening in the Confederacy. More importantly, with no comprehensive strategic planing of any kind taking place a few more ironclads making random sallies would have been meaningless. As at the Battle of Memphis where the CS ram captains attacked as they saw fit… in fact never had a single meeting to share plans, intel or tactics.

On the Union side the commanders such as Farragut, Porter & Foote were brilliant. They cooperated enthusiastically with Grant & Sherman. The army / navy campaigns were coordinated seamlessly. It wouldn't have made any material difference had a few more ironclads have been set forth Don Quixote like to tilt with Union flotillas.

This is an overgeneralization.

The River Defense Fleet was indeed an emergemcy measure and a mix-up of civilian steamboat captains which in the end failed.

The construction of ironclads was hampered by the loss of N.O. and Norfolk - there was just no alternative any more but to build them wherever a suitable site, some production capabilities and a constructor could meet.
That is not the consequence of failed planning or absence of planning.
There was quite some organization behind the confederate ironclad-program.
A standard-type of ironclad was conceived and funding and construction made possible against severe problems - the logistical problems alone most probably let a lot of people lose sleep over it
(but astonishingly most of it could be solved somehow…)

Another point is the bickering, self-aggrandising stance between influential figures.
Well, that is something that can be observed quite everywhere in the war - and on both sides.
In the Confederacy fighting an uphill-struggle did everything but soothe those conflicts.
And having a lot of very rich people, quite some of them plantation-owners, in charge - or at least laying heavy pressure on politicians and governors was anything but helpful - and definitely aggravated the problem.

Those are different factors.
One can judge them candidly and get to a differentiated assessment.

Others prefer to lump all of it together…

 

[Piedone]

. It wouldn't have made any material difference had a few more ironclads have been set forth Don Quixote like to tilt with Union flotillas.

You know no southern harbour was lost (until very late in the war)
where a relevant ironclad force was present?

You know New Orleans was lost - where no relevant ironclad force was present?

 

[G Low]

Horace King, a former slave and master bridge builder was conscripted into confederate service and forced to help build iron clads in Columbus Georgia for the CSA.
He built many bridges in Georgia and Alabama. Here are some examples of his work.

Possibly the Columbus/Phoenix city bridge

Cantilevered staircase in the Alabama state house.

Not sure which iron clads ship this is but is one he worked on.

 

[Rhea Cole]

DELUDED PEOPLE CAVE IN

Cautionary tale of what the Confederacy did when a formidable ironclad was gifted to them. Read more here.

Link.

Thread 'Admiral Porter's Ironclad Hoax'

Jan 28, 2013

I had a chance to spend some time browsing, this time had a GREAT time with a few things! Pretty sure folks who frequent this part of the forum knew this, but it was the first I'd heard anything about Porter's hoax, his 'Quaker Ironclad'. Some accounts have the Confederates a little annoyed with the whole thing, albeit baffled. One account had this massive thing knocked together in only 12 hours, which would seem extreme if you hadn't read about some of the other massive undertakings the Engineers had turned out. Small potatoes compared to a pontoon bridge consisting of ships nailed...

• JPK Huson 1863
• Replies: 18
• Forum: Naval War - At Sea & Along Inland Waterways

• 

 

[Piedone]

DELUDED PEOPLE CAVE IN
View attachment 579255

Cautionary tale of what the Confederacy did when a formidable ironclad was gifted to them. Read more here.

Link.

Thread 'Admiral Porter's Ironclad Hoax'

Jan 28, 2013

I had a chance to spend some time browsing, this time had a GREAT time with a few things! Pretty sure folks who frequent this part of the forum knew this, but it was the first I'd heard anything about Porter's hoax, his 'Quaker Ironclad'. Some accounts have the Confederates a little annoyed with the whole thing, albeit baffled. One account had this massive thing knocked together in only 12 hours, which would seem extreme if you hadn't read about some of the other massive undertakings the Engineers had turned out. Small potatoes compared to a pontoon bridge consisting of ships nailed...

• JPK Huson 1863
• Replies: 18
• Forum: Naval War - At Sea & Along Inland Waterways

• 

This is indeed a great story -
and a proof of great cunning on behalf of Porter.

But what do you want to show with all of that?
I mean….regarding to "CS ironclad construction"?

 

[G Low]

This is indeed a great story -
and a proof of great cunning on behalf of Porter.

But what do you want to show with all of that?
I mean….regarding to "CS ironclad construction"?

Should be ironclad destruction?
At least they saved the whisky….

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Not sure which iron clads ship this is but is one he worked on.

That's the CSS Jackson.

The remains are on display at the National Civil War Naval Museum in Columbus,Georgia.

 

[G Low]

That's the CSS Jackson.

The remains are on display at Civil War Naval Museum in Columbus,Georgia.

I should have known, I have been to that museum.
That's an interesting museum, you don't think of sea ports that far inland. Columbus was Georgia's link to the gulf of "America". And remember that unlimited supply of pensacola, Florida oysters,

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I should have known, I have been to that museum.

Same here.
I highly recommend that museum to anyone interested in Civil War naval history.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Should be ironclad destruction?
At least they saved the whisky….

That shows a certain enlightened self interest.

 

[G Low]

That shows a certain enlightened self interest.

I can hear them now "I'm not going to leave ……….the whiskey". It's a pity, why didn't they just load the guns on that grounded Yankee iron clad and wait for the other "iron clad " and fight it out. They could have drank whiskey while waiting.
I mean the gunboat was fake, right?

 

[Rhea Cole]

I can hear them now "I'm not going to leave ……….the whiskey". It's a pity, why didn't they just load the guns on that grounded Yankee iron clad and wait for the other "iron clad " and fight it out. They could have drank whiskey while waiting.

Not sure how much courage it would have taken to see the gunboats headed full steam in the opposite direction to decide to fight it out. I would suggest that drinking first would have encouraged the urge to make a 300 Spartans like stand… if not the chances of success. I cut them plenty of slack. This really was a bunch of yahoos who basically had a space ship land in their back yard.

 

[G Low]

Those Yankees kept quiet about the plan, it scared the rebels into skedaddling. Were all the Yankee boats coming down or was it just the fake one ? If the rebels had not destroyed the Yankee gunboat, would have the federals destroyed their own ship?

 

[Rhea Cole]

Those Yankees kept quiet about the plan, it scared the rebels into skedaddling. Were all the Yankee boats coming down or was it just the fake one ? If the rebels had not destroyed the Yankee gunboat, would have the federals destroyed their own ship?

I do not have an informed answer as to Admiral Porter's intentions. However, the Union engineering elements had surprisingly sophisticated salvage assets. The one that impressed me the most was a dedicated air pumping boat coupled with bladders. Riverboats that had run aground or been snagged were floated by inflating the bladders. They could then be towed to a landing for salvage or repair.

Given the whacky rubber coating & some other design flaws, just putting a torch to the thing wouldn't be all that bad a plan, just saying.