Research Confederate Strength 1862

Saphroneth

Major
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
As usual your thinking & the accepted casualty figures are not the same. You really should read the books before you speculate.
Admittedly Wikipedia, but:

Peninsula Campaign lists 29,300 (and at that, that actually includes battles from before Lee took over; it'd be only 20,000 if only counting the Seven Days)
Northern VA campaign lists 9,200 (so I counted high by 300)
Maryland Campaign is 16,900 based on my own research and is much greater than the Wikipedia count (which counts 10,300 in the Maryland Campaign, though 12,051 at Antietam itself!)
Fredericksburg is 5,400
Chancellorsville campaign on Wikipedia is 12,800, so I counted high by 6,200
Gettysburg is "27,000-32,000 estimated" so that one is a low count - call it 30,000, so I undercounted by 4,300
Bristoe has about 1,400 Confederate casualties, and Buckland Mills has 400; 2nd Rappahannock Station has 1,700.
Mine Run was about 700.
The Overland is "30,000-35,000 estimated", so I think 31,800 is reasonable.
Petersburg has an estimate of 28,000 on Wikipedia.

So all the pre-Appomattox ones total (via Wikipedia, except my own for the Maryland) to 167,600, when including Seven Pines and other pre-Lee battles. Appomattox has the main battles being Five Forks, 3rd Petersburg and Sailor's Creek, and those add to 15,800, but even assuming 25,000 casualties in the Appomattox Campaign it still only gets to 193,000.


Obviously some of these are "estimated" but since I used the high value for the Peninsula and the high value for the Maryland I'm actually including around 14,000 casualties more than the accepted values, before counting Appomattox. For the 240,000 number to work there has to be between 20,000 and 40,000 battlefield casualties which aren't in any of the above...
 

67th Tigers

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Bristoe? Though I bet the number is small
I have the campaign at 3,791 rebel casualties...

Peninsula campaign (McClellan): 29,298
2nd Bull Run campaign (Pope): 9,474
Maryland Campaign (McClellan): 14,488
Fredericksburg Campaign (Burnside): 5,377
Chancellorsville Campaign (Hooker): 18,938
Gettysburg Campaign (Meade): 25,723
Mine Run Campaign (Meade): 3,791
Overland Campaign (Grant): 31,763
Siege of Petersburg (Grant): 22,629
Appomattox Campaign (Grant): 19,636
-Surrendered: 27,805
 

Bruce Vail

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
You have raised a good point. Under Lee’s command the A of NV suffered abut 240,000 casualties. Under Lee’s command my NC relations’ regiment lost 80% & my wife’s G-G-grandad’s 3rd GA 40% at Gettysburg. Benjamin Lester was known as the only man from his country that came home whole.

Here in Rutherford Co TN, virtually the entire cohort that volunteered to fight for the right to hold human beings as property did not survive the first year of the war. A historian with the excellent British CW Roundtable has made a study of the Rock City Guards. His research has led to the conclusion that even if the CSA had not lost control of Middle TN, there weren’t replacements to refill the ranks.

It is actually easy to see the practical effect of the absence of replacements in the number of consolidated regiments that come into existence. During 1862. All you have to do is read the orders of battle. In round numbers, 2,000 men were reduced to about 300 -150.

Funny that you should mention multiple casualties for the same individual in response to the personal history of Col. Hamilton Brown. He is recorded as has having been wounded 11 times during the war, which must be some kind of record.

Not uncommon in my experience is that Confederate officers will be recorded as having multiple woundings during the war, yet survived and had long post-war lives.
 

NedBaldwin

Major
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Location
California
You have that labeled as Mine Run which I understand to be different than Bristoe

I have the campaign at 3,791 rebel casualties...

Peninsula campaign (McClellan): 29,298
2nd Bull Run campaign (Pope): 9,474
Maryland Campaign (McClellan): 14,488
Fredericksburg Campaign (Burnside): 5,377
Chancellorsville Campaign (Hooker): 18,938
Gettysburg Campaign (Meade): 25,723
Mine Run Campaign (Meade): 3,791
Overland Campaign (Grant): 31,763
Siege of Petersburg (Grant): 22,629
Appomattox Campaign (Grant): 19,636
-Surrendered: 27,805
 

Rhea Cole

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Location
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
Funny that you should mention multiple casualties for the same individual in response to the personal history of Col. Hamilton Brown. He is recorded as has having been wounded 11 times during the war, which must be some kind of record.

Not uncommon in my experience is that Confederate officers will be recorded as having multiple woundings during the war, yet survived and had long post-war lives.
My cousin many times removed was wounded nine time & captured twice. He is the one of the Immortal 600. I figure Grant’s ending exchange saved his life… he was running out of places to get hit without mortal effect. You didn’t want to be anywhere near my wife’s G-G-Great. He was on every A of NV battle & only took home a chunk of metal under his right eye. It took quite a pile of bones to make him statistically possible.
 

Saphroneth

Major
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
I don’t ever use Wikipedia. The consensus among my peers is American CW Battlefield Trust is the go to for numbers. Not only is their scholarship top notch, their graphic analysis is excellent. The man who does their maps is a genius. Once again, I am surprised you don’t know that. I am being extremely friendly when I say that more time reading & less time seeming will pay great dividends.
Let's see:

Seven Days
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/seven-days-battles
says 19,000 Confederate casualties.

Cedar Mountain
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/cedar-mountain
Says 1,338 Confederate casualties.

Second Bull Run
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/second-manassas
Says 8,353 Confederate casualties.

Chantilly
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/chantilly
Says 800 Confederate casualties.

South Mountain
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/south-mountain
Says 2,685 Confederate casualties.

Antietam
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/antietam
Says 10,316 Confederate casualties.

Fredericksburg
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/fredericksburg
Says 6,000 Confederate casualties.

Chancellorsville
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/chancellorsville
Says 13,460 Confederate casualties.

Gettysburg
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/gettysburg
Says 28,063 Confederate casualties.

Bristoe
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/bristoe-station
Says 1,380 Confederate casualties.

Mine Run
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/mine-run
Says 680 Confederate casualties.

Wilderness
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/wilderness
Says 13,000 Confederate casualties.

Spotsylvania
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/spotsylvania-court-house
Says 12,000 Confederate casualties.

North Anna
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/north-anna
Says 1,600 Confederate casualties.

Cold Harbor
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/cold-harbor
Says 4,595 Confederate casualties.

Petersburg
There is no single battle report I could locate for Petersburg.


Adding all of these up means that the pre-Petersburg casualties in all the major battles sums to 123,270. Which is actually less than I had by that point.
 

Rhea Cole

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Location
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
At this point I have read quite a lot of the book which you directed me to. I looked up Wheeler in the book, as you directed me, and have examined the detailed analysis and followed the footnotes (as you told me to do):



I have not yet run into any case where Connelly describes Wheeler's returns as inaccurate. I've run into plenty of cases where Wheeler is described as being a poor commander and making bad decisions, but nothing about his returns being inaccurate and several places where Connelly cites Wheeler's returns as his (sole) source for his statement about Wheeler's numerical strength at that time.

Is there a section I missed where Connelly explains that, actually, when he says how many men Wheeler had (and cites Wheeler's returns in the OR) he means Wheeler had half as many men as that but he's not going to bother explaining that?

Because otherwise you're just telling me to read a whole book, and then I'll understand you, and if I don't then I just need to read the book again... but I have read the relevant sections of the book by any reasonable measure (i.e. the sections where Connelly talks about Wheeler's strength and references his returns) and it seems clear to me that Connelly is using Wheeler's returns as a true picture of Wheeler's strength.
The reason I am telling your I to read the books is the reason Connelly put the references to Wheeler on the books. At a time when Wheeler was reporting only a fraction of his command, as little as 10% if memory serves, mounted, equipped & able, the A of TN infantry regiments were in dire need of replacements.

Had you read the text, Connelly goes into great detail explaining how Wheeler’s mismanagement of the A of TN cavalry made it a haven for shirkers. At any given time, you have exhaustively confirmed, thousands of Wheeler’s men were wandering around looking for horses. An unknowable number had no intention of finding one.

Ed Bearss et al state that the Battle of Milton about this time in 1863 marked the tipping point at which CSA cavalry would only get worse &Union cavalry would only get better. The irreplaceable men & horses that Morgan threw away on his raid across the Ohio was an example of the steady drain.

This is why I keep saying to anyone who actually wants to understand why Connelly put the references to Wheeler in there is to actually read the book.
 

Rhea Cole

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Location
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
Let's see:

Seven Days
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/seven-days-battles
says 19,000 Confederate casualties.

Cedar Mountain
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/cedar-mountain
Says 1,338 Confederate casualties.

Second Bull Run
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/second-manassas
Says 8,353 Confederate casualties.

Chantilly
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/chantilly
Says 800 Confederate casualties.

South Mountain
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/south-mountain
Says 2,685 Confederate casualties.

Antietam
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/antietam
Says 10,316 Confederate casualties.

Fredericksburg
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/fredericksburg
Says 6,000 Confederate casualties.

Chancellorsville
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/chancellorsville
Says 13,460 Confederate casualties.

Gettysburg
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/gettysburg
Says 28,063 Confederate casualties.

Bristoe
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/bristoe-station
Says 1,380 Confederate casualties.

Mine Run
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/mine-run
Says 680 Confederate casualties.

Wilderness
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/wilderness
Says 13,000 Confederate casualties.

Spotsylvania
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/spotsylvania-court-house
Says 12,000 Confederate casualties.

North Anna
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/north-anna
Says 1,600 Confederate casualties.

Cold Harbor
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/cold-harbor
Says 4,595 Confederate casualties.

Petersburg
There is no single battle report I could locate for Petersburg.


Adding all of these up means that the pre-Petersburg casualties in all the major battles sums to 123,270. Which is actually less than I had by that point.
Look at the chart that compares Grant’s casualties as an army commander & Lee’s as commander of the A of NV.
 

Saphroneth

Major
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
The reason I am telling your I to read the books is the reason Connelly put the references to Wheeler on the books. At a time when Wheeler was reporting only a fraction of his command, as little as 10% if memory serves, mounted, equipped & able, the A of TN infantry regiments were in dire need of replacements.

Had you read the text, Connelly goes into great detail explaining how Wheeler’s mismanagement of the A of TN cavalry made it a haven for shirkers. At any given time, you have exhaustively confirmed, thousands of Wheeler’s men were wandering around looking for horses. An unknowable number had no intention of finding one.

Ed Bearss et al state that the Battle of Milton about this time in 1863 marked the tipping point at which CSA cavalry would only get worse &Union cavalry would only get better. The irreplaceable men & horses that Morgan threw away on his raid across the Ohio was an example of the steady drain.

This is why I keep saying to anyone who actually wants to understand why Connelly put the references to Wheeler in there is to actually read the book.
...which isn't an example of Wheeler's returns being inaccurate. It's an example of Wheeler's returns being accurate (they represent correctly the number of men Wheeler has in an effective state) but what they are showing is a state resulting from Wheeler's mismanagement.

I fully accept the idea that Wheeler mismanaged his cavalry, but that's not what I was actually asking for.
 

Saphroneth

Major
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Look at the chart that compares Grant’s casualties as an army commander & Lee’s as commander of the A of NV.
I can't seem to find it, and would be grateful for a link; I did however find an article here:

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/petersburg-wearing-down-lees-army

Which gives the number of Confederate casualties in the Petersburg siege as 28,000. All told that brings the Confederate casualties in the major battles to 151,270 before Appomattox.

I don't think I'm missing battles which would add to nearly 100,000 casualties suffered by Lee. I think the biggest one not counted in my list is probably one of the cavalry raids.
 

Rhea Cole

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Location
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
...which isn't an example of Wheeler's returns being inaccurate. It's an example of Wheeler's returns being accurate (they represent correctly the number of men Wheeler has in an effective state) but what they are showing is a state resulting from Wheeler's mismanagement.

I fully accept the idea that Wheeler mismanaged his cavalry, but that's not what I was actually asking for.
Look up Wheeler’s returns after his raid from Chattanooga to Middle Tennessee & back over the Tennessee. As was mentioned in an earlier post, an IG report is referenced. You really should read the book.
 

Rhea Cole

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Location
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
I can't seem to find it, and would be grateful for a link; I did however find an article here:

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/petersburg-wearing-down-lees-army

Which gives the number of Confederate casualties in the Petersburg siege as 28,000. All told that brings the Confederate casualties in the major battles to 151,270 before Appomattox.

I don't think I'm missing battles which would add to nearly 100,000 casualties suffered by Lee. I think the biggest one not counted in my list is probably one of the cavalry raids.
The records of casualties, etc are what they are. If you have some quibble with American Battlefield Trust’s figures, the appropriate persons to complain to are officials of that organization. I can’t for the life of me imagine what I can do about it or why you would think that I could.
 

Saphroneth

Major
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
The records of casualties, etc are what they are. If you have some quibble with American Battlefield Trust’s figures, the appropriate persons to complain to are officials of that organization. I can’t for the life of me imagine what I can do about it or why you would think that I could.
As a reminder, what happened was that:

You said that "Under Lee’s command the A of NV suffered abut 240,000 casualties."

I added up all the casualties from a list I had, and got 183,000 before the surrender. (164,000 before Appomattox.)

You said that my thinking and the accepted casualty figures were not the same.

I then went to Wikipedia to try and see if I'd missed a lot of accepted casualties, and by using the Wikipedia casualty figures (except for my own for Maryland as they were higher) I got to 167,600 before Appomattox.

You then pointed me at the American Civil War Battlefield Trust site.

I looked up their figures for all of the battles Lee fought as the commander of the Army of Northern Virginia. The total that I got before Appomattox adding up their figures was 151,270.

You then told me to look at "the chart that compares Grant’s casualties as an army commander & Lee’s as commander of the A of NV."

I could not find it, and asked where it was.


I'm perfectly willing to provisionally accept the American Civil War Battlefield Trust numbers as a basis of comparison; the problem is that those numbers do not support your original statement to the effect that the AoNV suffered about 240,000 casualties under Lee's command. They're at least 50,000 short.
 

Saphroneth

Major
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Look up Wheeler’s returns after his raid from Chattanooga to Middle Tennessee & back over the Tennessee. As was mentioned in an earlier post, an IG report is referenced. You really should read the book.
Okay, so we're looking not at all of Wheeler's returns being wrong (which was your initial claim), but specifically Wheeler's returns after his raid from Chattanooga to Middle Tennessee and back being wrong. Is that correct?
 

Rhea Cole

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Location
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
Okay, so we're looking not at all of Wheeler's returns being wrong (which was your initial claim), but specifically Wheeler's returns after his raid from Chattanooga to Middle Tennessee and back being wrong. Is that correct?
WE most assuredly are not looking up Wheeler’s returns in isolation or falling into straw man fallacies.

Read the book, the footnotes are there for a reason. Go online & read the original documents for yourself. Compare them with the original documentation that you have collected from other sources. There are sources the Connelly did not have access to. That is what I have done many times.

It is absolutely brilliant to read the Powell/Wittenberg Tullahoma Campaign & refer to Connelly’s exclusively CSA POV. Believe you me, the insights are thought provoking.

The reason the A of TN bio is still in print is that you can go back to it over & over as you study the discrete campaigns & actions. Read the books cover to cover & quit wasting time.
 

Saphroneth

Major
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Read the book, the footnotes are there for a reason. Go online & read the original documents for yourself. Compare them with the original documentation that you have collected from other sources. There are sources the Connelly did not have access to. That is what did, twice.
Would you be able to let me know which original documents to look at? I'm afraid I cannot access that page of the book, though I have identified something which appears to be a return from Wheeler in the ORs at a date after his raid into Tennessee:

1622420288058.png

(The October 31 return on the immediately previous page stating that the cavalry had no field returns of that date owing to being on the move).

I note that this return is for a much larger number of regiments than the previous field return (as their AP&A is over 28,000, while the AP&A Last Field Return column is for 14,450; this indicates either that Wheeler has been significantly reinforced or that this category now embraces more than just Wheeler's part of the cavalry). I also note that the Effective Total Present is very similar to the PFD, which would be a potential signifier of something unusual being the case; however, this return is from well after the end of the raid, which would be a possible explanation.

If this is the return where the numbers do not reflect reality, then the remaining step is to look at the IG report.
 

Rhea Cole

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Location
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
Would you be able to let me know which original documents to look at? I'm afraid I cannot access that page of the book, though I have identified something which appears to be a return from Wheeler in the ORs at a date after his raid into Tennessee:

View attachment 402485

(The October 31 return on the immediately previous page stating that the cavalry had no field returns of that date owing to being on the move).

I note that this return is for a much larger number of regiments than the previous field return (as their AP&A is over 28,000, while the AP&A Last Field Return column is for 14,450; this indicates either that Wheeler has been significantly reinforced or that this category now embraces more than just Wheeler's part of the cavalry). I also note that the Effective Total Present is very similar to the PFD, which would be a potential signifier of something unusual being the case; however, this return is from well after the end of the raid, which would be a possible explanation.

If this is the return where the numbers do not reflect reality, then the remaining step is to look at the IG report.
Have you seen how many pages there are in the back of those books? Have you read the notes that accompany the footnotes? That is how you will know which original documentation you want to peruse. My copies have multiple post it notes with notations pages interleaved. I wouldn’t have a clew where to start. Just read the books.
 

Saphroneth

Major
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Have you seen how many pages there are in the back of those books? Have you read the notes that accompany the footnotes? That is how you will know which original documentation you want to peruse. My copies have multiple post it notes with notations pages interleaved. I wouldn’t have a clew where to start. Just read the books.
I'll see if I can get it from a library in future; the online copy doesn't have the relevant pages available, and I can't find a copy available for digital purchase.
 

Saphroneth

Major
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
The records of casualties, etc are what they are. If you have some quibble with American Battlefield Trust’s figures, the appropriate persons to complain to are officials of that organization. I can’t for the life of me imagine what I can do about it or why you would think that I could.
Can I ask you again where from the American Battlefield Trust's figures you got 240,000 casualties suffered by the Army of Northern Virginia under Lee's command?
I have gone through the list of individual battles Lee commanded and have summed them up, and am missing tens of thousands from the count you gave.
 

67th Tigers

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Look at the chart that compares Grant’s casualties as an army commander & Lee’s as commander of the A of NV.
The fair comparison is Lee's casualties fighting Grant and vice versa.

Using the generally accepted numbers, Grant suffered 109,526 casualties against Lee. Lee suffered 74,028 casualties, to which you can add 27,805 who surrendered (total 101,833).

However, these are, at least in part, exaggerated for Lee. For example, the casualties used for 2nd Petersburg are 4,000, whereas actual casualties were closer to 2,400.
 
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