confederate officer jacket ?

[Package4]

I would also proffer that the season might dictate the dress of an officer/colonel on campaign, colder weather might favor a frock.

 

[CMWinkler]

The depiction of my namesake in my avatar is from 1864, with his promotion to Lt. Colonel in August of that year. As you can see, it is a double breasted frock coat.

 

[AUG]

Does anyone recall Grant accepting the surrender of the ANV wearing a sack coat? The preference of the officer in question would dictate his attire, frock coats are cumbersome while mounted and most colonels were. I have the effects of Col John Cromwell, of the 47th Ill, who was killed just prior to Champions Hill. His frock coat survives because he was wearing his sack coat and stored his frock, two pairs of pants a vest and extra pair of boots in his trunk.

Grant's sack, in the Ray Richey collection:

I remember Patrick Cleburne was said to have been wearing an officer's sack coat when he was killed at Franklin. Don't think it survives today though; he was probably buried in it.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Does anyone recall Grant accepting the surrender of the ANV wearing a sack coat? The preference of the officer in question would dictate his attire, frock coats are cumbersome while mounted and most colonels were. I have the effects of Col John Cromwell, of the 47th Ill, who was killed just prior to Champions Hill. His frock coat survives because he was wearing his sack coat and stored his frock, two pairs of pants a vest and extra pair of boots in his trunk.

Grant's sack, in the Ray Richey collection:

Wow, I never knew Grant's sack coat had survived! Thanks for posting a picture of it, it is a very revealing insight, as it looks to me like it wasn't a simple private's coat as so many sources say. I had always figured only Grant's frock coats had survived.

Also I think you raise some very good points, when one examines Confederate officer frock coats they are usually pristine, but I think more than a few Confederate senior officers owned more than one frock, one for the field, and for dress. Also in relevance to the subject, I'd like to say there are more than a few example of Confederate officers wearing civilian style sack coats in the field, junior and senior officers, one of which I can think of off the top of my head is a sky-blue jeans sack coat, without insignia here in Texas in a museum the officer in question wore off duty supposedly. (I can't remember the officers name or unit, but Fred Adolphus covers it in his article on Confederate sack coats).

To be honest I feel like an idiot, in my first post on this thread I don't recall mentioning the sack coat possibility, I knew better but had a lapse in judgement, oh well.

 

[Legion Para]

Click on this link to see frock coats in the Collection of the North Carolina Museum of History.

http://collections.ncdcr.gov/RediscoveryProficioPublicSearch/SearchResults.aspx?

 

[Legion Para]

Click on this link and view pages 22 through 27. You will see the frock coats in the Collection of the American Civil War Museum (aka the Museum of the Confederacy).

http://moconfederacy.pastperfectonl...mages=on&page=22&search_criteria=Frock&utf8=✓

 

[Package4]

The depiction of my namesake in my avatar is from 1864, with his promotion to Lt. Colonel in August of that year. As you can see, it is a double breasted frock coat.

When sitting for a photo, officers tended to wear their finest, field wear, I believe might be different depending on the preference of each officer.

There were also command preferences, I read somewhere that Hancock preferred that the 2nd Corps wear forage caps/Kepis for enlisted.

 

[treebie2000]

Si Klegg raises a very good point, right on the money as well.
One should remember that Confederate officers were just as fastidious as their Union counterparts in their dress, many were well to do with a big enough bill fold to afford a frock coat. That being said it should also be pointed out that in 1864 the C.S. Army changed the rules and for the first time allowed officers to outright draw an enlisted man's uniform in lieu of the previous rule mandating they provide their own uniform out of pocket. As the War dragged on officers on both sides learned that fancy double breasted frock coats and shell jackets with gold trim, (Union the gold border of their shoulder boards, Confederate, their Austrian knots on their sleeves), tended to get said officers shot. After said realizations by observant officers, more than a few started to take preventative measures, with some Union officers removing the gold border of their insignia, and wearing sack coats like the enlisted men, with some even wearing ad hoc collar insignia and Confederates wearing shell jacket with smaller less obvious collar insignia and no Austrian knots. Of course that doesn't mean all officers adopted those practices, more than few, indeed the majority clung to the fancy stuff.

If your dead set on wearing an enlisted man's shell jacket with officer insignia for 1864 I personally see no reason to say it didn't happen, especially since that was the year it became officially acceptable in the Confederate Army, just remember it was a Confederacy, and the native state was theoretically responsible for the equipage of troops from their state. But I would also like to point out that just because an officer was wearing a shell jacket, didn't mean he didn't have a frock coat, they would keep those for nice occasions, and as keepsakes after the war, (original C.S. officer frock always seem to outnumber surviving enlisted man's uniforms), a good example of this is the McCleaver uniform in the former Museum of the Confederacy, consisting of a well worn, shell jacket, vest and trousers, and a not so worn double breasted frock coat, all privately tailored, (well maybe not the trousers, but probably).

For a N.C. officer wearing an issue shell jacket, I'd say the Royal Depot, or any other N.C. depot jacket would be sufficient.

EDIT: Since your asking about a colonel, I'd say and enlisted man's jacket would have been rare, I missed that key word in my original post. What I had said applies to field officers, as in Major on down, Colonels were basically staff officers, to see enlisted issue jackets with insignia, would have been very rare, they might have worn shell jackets, even depot made ones but they would have been modified, as in added branch of service trim, etc.

I wouldn't dispute what is stated above, except the bit about "field officers"....Lieutenants and Captains are "Company Grade" Officers. Majors, Lieutenant Colonels, and even full bird Colonels are "Field Grade" Officers. Many Colonels led their Regiments into battle, and died among their soldiers. They were NOT "basically staff officers".

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

I wouldn't dispute what is stated above, except the bit about "field officers"....Lieutenants and Captains are "Company Grade" Officers. Majors, Lieutenant Colonels, and even full bird Colonels are "Field Grade" Officers. Many Colonels led their Regiments into battle, and died among their soldiers. They were NOT "basically staff officers".

I see your point, perhaps some clarity on my part is needed.
Yes Majors on up did go into battle, even Colonels, but they were as I said, basically staff officers. The reason I say that is because, as senior officers they had to handle all the big important paper trails, as they were the leaders and "staff" of their regiments. The senior most officers had to meet with the Generals, be the main ones present at the brigade officer's call, and several other duties that were basically staff duties in my view, and as such unlike they're lower-in-rank brothers, they had an almost daily use of the fancy frock coats, and other uniforms closer to the regulation.

I never meant to insinuate that they never partook in battle, many gave they're lives on the field, including more than a few genuine staff officers, but where the other duties of a regiment away from the field, they and they're staffs were hard at work with staff duties for their regiments, and joining in on the meetings at the brigade level.

 

[18thmississippi]

another question to add to this would be what about the company officers ? I have been seeing some examples of custom garments such as sacks and dressed up shell jackets alot lately for the lower grade officers. heck even saw a shell jacket for a colonel. from this research I've noticed something in common, we have tons and tons of officer DB jackets that have survived but very little of the odd ball jackets or jackets of the enlisted. After pondering on it for awhile it seems to me that officer wore some other jacket in the field during battles and campaigns and another for other occasions. im not saying all officers did this but i feel as if custom civilian or commercial jackets that have been militarized are unrepresented in the hobby. Im not including all the guys who wear depot jackets with rank on them to every event, but ones that are custom made for the officer. just a thought ive had can anyone help shed some light on this ?

 

[grognard]

"Yes Majors on up did go into battle, even Colonels, but they were as I said, basically staff officers."

A good read for you would be August Kautz's "Customs of Service for Officers". This describes their duties in detail. Yes all officers have paperwork to do, but there is a basic difference between "line" and "staff" officers:

- Line officers (which includes both company and field grade) are combatants, and wear the uniform of their branch of service.

- Staff officers are non-combatants. They include specialists (surgeons at the regimental level) and also combat branch officers assigned to staff duties (quartermaster, etc).

A lot of the Colonel's paperwork is handled by the Adjutant (effectively his military secretary) and Officer of the Day (his "visible presence" when he is absent). This frees the Colonel to go where he needs to, INSTEAD OF "doing staff work".

 

[Package4]

another question to add to this would be what about the company officers ? I have been seeing some examples of custom garments such as sacks and dressed up shell jackets alot lately for the lower grade officers. heck even saw a shell jacket for a colonel. from this research I've noticed something in common, we have tons and tons of officer DB jackets that have survived but very little of the odd ball jackets or jackets of the enlisted. After pondering on it for awhile it seems to me that officer wore some other jacket in the field during battles and campaigns and another for other occasions. im not saying all officers did this but i feel as if custom civilian or commercial jackets that have been militarized are unrepresented in the hobby. Im not including all the guys who wear depot jackets with rank on them to every event, but ones that are custom made for the officer. just a thought ive had can anyone help shed some light on this ?

I tend to believe that field officers had multiple sets of uniforms, one for field use and another for dress occasions. The Five Forks Confederate prisoner picture actually only shows one individual, who can definitively be shown to be wearing a frock. The subject is to the right of the soldier in the wheel cap. The other actually has a ground cloth and blanket piece folded into his belt in the rear. The image may be blown up from the LOC site and you can see that there are garments folded and draped down that appear to show the bottom edge of a frock coat.

That some officers continued to wear frock coats in the field, is certainly a fact, but many are seen wearing a shell or sack coat. There are quite a few officer's shell jackets that are extant today.

 

[James N.]

I see your point, perhaps some clarity on my part is needed.
Yes Majors on up did go into battle, even Colonels, but they were as I said, basically staff officers. The reason I say that is because, as senior officers they had to handle all the big important paper trails, as they were the leaders and "staff" of their regiments. The senior most officers had to meet with the Generals, be the main ones present at the brigade officer's call, and several other duties that were basically staff duties in my view, and as such unlike they're lower-in-rank brothers, they had an almost daily use of the fancy frock coats, and other uniforms closer to the regulation.

I never meant to insinuate that they never partook in battle, many gave they're lives on the field, including more than a few genuine staff officers, but where the other duties of a regiment away from the field, they and they're staffs were hard at work with staff duties for their regiments, and joining in on the meetings at the brigade level.

It would perhaps be more clear to separate the officer grades as the Army Reg's. do, as Company Grade or Officers of the Staff and Field (meaning regimental staffs and above as you suggest.