Confederate Navy "Round Jackets"?

[Rusk County Avengers]

From the late 18th Century till the late 19th Centuries "Round Jackets", "Monkey Jackets", "Roundabouts", or whatever the proper nautical name is, were fixtures of at least every English speaking navies, and were usually lay-down collar, double-breasted shell jackets, even being issued to some extent in the USN. My questions are, not only how common they were, (there are records of them), issued in the Confederate Navy? What was most common pattern? Is there any photographic evidence? Have any survived at all?

Those questions have boggled my mind for some time now, along with many other CSN related subjects, (my oh my why don't the Navies get the glory the Armies get), and this question stands out among my other CSN uniform headaches, (I love to study the CSN in all theaters and the Trans-Mississippi CSN, which is a headache of its own), and any hard documentation on these uniforms has eluded me.Thus my posting this question to the forum.

I'm also posting a photo taken from"Civil War: A Complete Photographic History", page 338 of Captain Smith of the "Old Dominion", (left), and Lieutenant McClellan, apparently according to the caption the officers of "Old Dominion", a blockade runner, adopted CSN uniforms, but the jackets appear more of an Army pattern, leading me to wonder not just the validity of the photos, but also the intelligence of these blockade runners, if that be what they are, because I would think getting caught by any the Union's blockaders would put the crews in between a rock and hard place if caught. Is it possible any Confederate Navy "Round Jackets" would have appeared similarly?

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Going back and re-reading my original post, I forgot to mention I'm looking for data on enlisted "Round Jackets", gray ones particularly, I forgot to mention I am aware of Dabney Minor's jacket in the former Museum of the Confederacy. I really need to learn to be specific in fewer words...

 

[major bill]

Round Jackets and Monkey Jackets are similar but not the exact same thing. Klaudly, one of our forum members, is doing some work on the subject of Confederate naval uniforms and perhaps he has some information on this subject.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Round Jackets and Monkey Jackets are similar but not the exact same thing.

Not something I've been aware of, CS Army, and other Army uniforms I know, Naval, still working on that lol.

 

[major bill]

I bumped a thread that discusses Confederate naval uniform to include gray roundabout jackets.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Thanks major bill, still new to the world of forums, I had to look around to figure out what you meant.

 

[Klaudly]

[QUOTE="
I'm also posting a photo taken from"Civil War: A Complete Photographic History", page 338 of Captain Smith of the "Old Dominion", (left), and Lieutenant McClellan, apparently according to the caption the officers of "Old Dominion", a blockade runner, adopted CSN uniforms, but the jackets appear more of an Army pattern, leading me to wonder not just the validity of the photos, but also the intelligence of these blockade runners, if that be what they are, because I would think getting caught by any the Union's blockaders would put the crews in between a rock and hard place if caught. Is it possible any Confederate Navy "Round Jackets" would have appeared similarly?[/QUOTE]

Captain Smith and and Lieutenant McClellan are CS Army signal officers in service on blockade runner "Old Dominion".

 

[Klaudly]

The famous Photograph of Matthew Pielert, captain-of-the-hold of the C.S.S. Torpedo in Jacket

 

[major bill]

A Confederate blue round jacket and a blue US round jacket look look much to same.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

The famous Photograph of Matthew Pielert, captain-of-the-hold of the C.S.S. Torpedo in JacketView attachment 185302

I have seen that photo before, but never that big and clear, (always been smaller), and seeing it here it looks to me that the actual jacket is a regular USN variant. The Confederacy had managed to get their hands on actual USN uniforms late in the war in some quantity, if I remember correctly, (not gonna swear to it), it was when they took the USS Water Witch that they got a good quantity of USN goodies, and re-issued them to the CSN.

Perhaps this is an example?

 

[Klaudly]

The regulation says: "The outside clothing for muster, shall consist of gray cloth jacket and trousers",no description of the details of the jacket, but it was certainly copied by the USN regulation. At least for the first 18 months, the blue cloth that was available and what they had managed to requisition or import from overseas was used. The jackets made by the Confederate Navy were practically similar, but gray in color. I believe this is a good example of confederate navy Jacket.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Awesome illustration of Matthew Pielert in gray, its just a darned shame none of those gray naval uniforms outside of the officers survived.
Its funny how the naval personnel back then despised the gray uniform, (they'd certainly hate it now!), but I like the gray uniform better than blue.

 

[RedRover]

Awesome illustration of Matthew Pielert in gray, its just a darned shame none of those gray naval uniforms outside of the officers survived.
Its funny how the naval personnel back then despised the gray uniform, (they'd certainly hate it now!), but I like the gray uniform better than blue.

No reason to believe Mr. Pielerts' jacket is gray. The Richmond or James River Squadron's seamen generally wore blue clothing throughout the war. An exception was "Confed. gray shirts" described in February, 1865. That same month a Confederate cavalryman described running into a raiding party of 100 seamen of that squadron on a failed foot expedition:

"a body of foot soldiers clad in dark blue, with burnished guns at the right shoulder shift, steadily advancing southward. This was enormously puzzling! Why would federal infantry be advancing south at that moment? And there was something singular in the uniforms and equipment of the men--very unlike federals. Their coats were navy blue, of unfamiliar cut; and they had cutlasses apparently in their belts...The men in blue were a battalion of Confederate marines." [John Esten Cooke, Wearing of the Gray, New York, E.B. Treat & Co., 1867, 557-558.]

If Pielert's jacket, pants, and cap are blue, perhaps is shirt is "Confed. gray;" though it certainly looks white in the image...

Jesse Marshall
Hernando, FL.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

No reason to believe Mr. Pielerts' jacket is gray. The Richmond or James River Squadron's seamen generally wore blue clothing throughout the war. An exception was "Confed. gray shirts" described in February, 1865. That same month a Confederate cavalryman described running into a raiding party of 100 seamen of that squadron on a failed foot expedition:

"a body of foot soldiers clad in dark blue, with burnished guns at the right shoulder shift, steadily advancing southward. This was enormously puzzling! Why would federal infantry be advancing south at that moment? And there was something singular in the uniforms and equipment of the men--very unlike federals. Their coats were navy blue, of unfamiliar cut; and they had cutlasses apparently in their belts...The men in blue were a battalion of Confederate marines." [John Esten Cooke, Wearing of the Gray, New York, E.B. Treat & Co., 1867, 557-558.]

If Pielert's jacket, pants, and cap are blue, perhaps is shirt is "Confed. gray;" though it certainly looks white in the image...

Jesse Marshall
Hernando, FL.

Looking back on this thread, it sure looks like I knew at the time Pielert's uniform wasn't gray, I commented on gray because of the very well done illustration of him in gray.

Also I wouldn't be in a hurry to say the James River Squadron was all blue in 1865, especially the Marines as the source suggests (no cutlasses for them). Imported English blue-gray kersey cloth had become extremely prevalent in Confederate stores by 1865, everywhere from Galveston to Richmond had a lot of the stuff. This cloth was what Longstreet's troops were issued before Chickamauga and had them mistaken for Union troops during that battle. Blue-Gray kersey, or English Army cloth, I strongly suspect ran from a very gray shade, to in-between to a very blue shade, I expect depending on who manufactured it looking back on pictures from the era. The Confederate Government had ceased all purchases of blue cloth abroad, or at least ordered it stopped by 1863, and I don't think it was the most common domestic product by 1865. Plus most accounts I've seen of the James River Squadron during the Fall of Richmond have mentioned them in gray.

Perhaps your source combined with others is proof of English Army cloth being used by the CSN? I know I've often looked for confirmation of a pet theory of mine of the CSN getting the stuff. Plus as for the CS Marines I've seen many writings and theories of them getting Richmond Depot uniforms.

(edited)

 

[Klaudly]

When the factories in Savannah, Mobile and Richmond were started, I believe that the confederate seamen' uniforms (from 1864) were made of gray fabric (with the material and shades they had available at the time) Although the blue fabric available was still used.
In what period was Pielert on duty? What is the date of the photo? Because if he had been on duty in 1864/65 I think his uniform could very well be gray.

​

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

For the record I meant the CS Government ceased all purchases of blue cloth after 1863 abroad.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

In what period was Pielert on duty? What is the date of the photo? Because if he had been on duty in 1864/65 I think his uniform could very well be gray.

I'm honestly not sure, I'm not sure I've ever seen a date on the photo. If its a gray uniform he's wearing, its most likely English Army cloth, that stuff seems to have showed up black in a lot of known photos where its worn, though I'm still leaning towards him wearing blue.

I'm leaning towards blue because of the pattern of his jacket, in the photo it look almost identical to Union round jackets, especially in your very well done illustration if outside pockets were visible they would be identical. Known blue CSN uniforms, such as the only known one to me, the Minor jacket worn at Hampton Roads is a very different pattern, especially around the collar. Though I do suspect the Minor jacket was privately tailored, it could be an example of a common used pattern.

 

[Klaudly]

Minor was an officer, so his uniform was probably made by a tailor at his own expense, that of Pielert a Petty officer, had been provided to him: or among the clothing found in Virginia at the beginning of the war or made -based on the federal pattern- with blue cloth or gray if made from 1864 onwards. This is my thought.

 

[Klaudly]

Plus as for the CS Marines I've seen many writings and theories of them getting Richmond Depot uniforms.

This is my own belief, if they could not get their own uniform, the marines at Drewry's Bluff, used to wear Richmond Depot jackets. That's why I designed one wearing the Richmond jacket during the retreat in 1865.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

This is my own belief, if they could not get their own uniform, the marines used to wear Richmond Depot jackets. That's why I designed one wearing the Richmond jacket during the retreat in 1865.

It makes a lot sense and is just plum logical. By late 1864 into 1865 the Richmond Depot was running on almost exclusively English Army cloth for the shell jackets, and there is evidence domestic jeans were used in CS versions of the sack coat. It was the largest uniform depot for a hundred miles, to the point of being the only one, and Marines were just maritime soldiers. They probably had plenty of uniforms to spare if they were turning out sack coats of any sort because they used more cloth, and them alongside shell jackets along with the large amount of imported Peter Tait jackets to go around, so in all probability, the CS Marines got Richmond Depot jackets, and were probably well clad considering the ANV being well clad.

I would bet the ANV was the best uniformed it had ever been at Appomattox and the Marines were a lot closer to their base of supply uniform wise than they were, plus being a lot fewer of them than the Army. There was almost certainly a surplus if African-Americans in the city were running off with and around in CS Army uniforms after the city fell as photographic evidence implies.