Company Muster Roll

[___joe___]

Hello –

In doing some genealogical research, I found a military record on Fold3.com that I'm hoping someone here can help me interpret/understand the context. The record is from the company muster roll, and the "Remarks" section of the card reads as follows (as best as I can interpret the handwriting):
"Lost on retreat from Jackson 3 4 H.F. Rifle cast box cap box shoulder strap belt 25 cast & 15 caps $61.50"

The lack of punctuation makes it difficult to figure out the list of items; are these the items listed?
3 4 H.F. rifle
cast box
cap box
shoulder strap
belt
25 cast
15 caps

Here are a couple of images of the record.

What is a 3 4 H.F. rifle?
What is a cast? I assume a cast box holds the 25 cast?

Do the remarks suggest that the individual was responsible for the company's supplies? It's not readily obvious as to why, for example, a single individual would have had 15 caps.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

 

[HarlechMan]

H.F rifle means a Harpers Ferry rifle.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Cart. box, ie cartridge box, for ammunition (cartridges). Cap box would be for the percussion caps.

 

[JOHN42768]

Last part I read as "Canteen, Cap Box, shoulder strap, belt, 25 Cartridges & 15 Caps" Could be wrong?

 

[Hussar Yeomanry]

I read (as per others) Cart Box, Cap Box, shoulder strap, belt, 25 Cartridges & 15 Caps

And yes Cart. Box would be Cartridge Box

Also, Welcome from the UK

 

[Youngblood]

Looks like during the retreat (or rout) he dropped all his gear and they are charging him for it.

Maybe the 34 means its lock was dated 1834 Harpers Ferry.

 

[lelliott19]

Hello –

In doing some genealogical research, I found a military record on Fold3.com that I'm hoping someone here can help me interpret/understand the context. The record is from the company muster roll, and the "Remarks" section of the card reads as follows (as best as I can interpret the handwriting):
"Lost on retreat from Jackson 3 4 H.F. Rifle cart box cap box shoulder strap belt 25 cart & 15 caps $61.50"

Hello @___joe___ Welcome to CivilWarTalk - the best place on the internet for Civil War Discussion. Happy to have you aboard.

Looks like the good folks here have deciphered the carded record for you, but you may be interested in this thread in the Regimental Histories Forum, which includes a lot of information about the 33rd Mississippi ....including this quote from the Regimental History: "The regiment participated in General Johnston's movement to the Big Black River for the relief of Vicksburg, retreating to Jackson when Vicksburg was surrendered, and was on duty with Featherston's Brigade around Jackson, confronted by Sherman's troops, July 9-16, 1863. Later in the year Loring's Division had headquarters at Canton."

Enjoy. https://civilwartalk.com/threads/33rd-mississippi-infantry.132024/

 

[___joe___]

Thanks for all of the replies, this helps a great deal. Yes, now I see the word "cart" and not "cast", which makes much more sense as an abbreviation for cartridge. I too had thought that John P. Evans was being charged for losing equipment during the retreat from Jackson. It made me wonder if other men from the company had likewise been charged for losing equipment, so I've been examining company muster roll records for other members of Company K. But so far I've found only one other individual who had something similar written on his muster roll record.

Thanks also for the link to regimental histories forum, there is a lot of good information there.

 

[lelliott19]

It made me wonder if other men from the company had likewise been charged for losing equipment, so I've been examining company muster roll records for other members of Company K. But so far I've found only one other individual who had something similar written on his muster roll record.

It's an interesting phenomenon that I have no explanation for. Being charged for lost equipment seems to be common in some regiments and an anomaly in others.

I am working on the 16th GA, Wofford's Brigade, ANV and haven't run across a single incident where a man was charged for loss of equipment. I found one instance in 1861 where TWO soldiers lost their brand new Enfields, just two days after they were issued. I have found no record that there was a stoppage for the lost guns. And I'm pretty sure plenty of guys lost equipment at Crampton's Gap in 1862 and Guard Hill in 1864, but so far, no record that anyone was assessed for it.

In contrast, I've looked at lots of records for other Confederate regiments where it is almost the norm to find some stoppage for lost equipment in most every man's records. I cant explain it.

 

[Tom Elmore]

Looks like during the retreat (or rout) he dropped all his gear and they are charging him for it.

Maybe the 34 means its lock was dated 1834 Harpers Ferry.

I read 37, as in, 1837 Harper's Ferry (model musket).

As of July 1863, I have seen assessed prices (Confederate) of $2.50 to replace a cartridge box, $1 for a cap pouch/box, cartridges at 5, 10 or 25 cents apiece, and caps one cent apiece. A waist belt was assessed at 75 cents. A private was only paid $11/month.

 

[___joe___]

I've finally completed examining all of the muster roll records for Company K, and there were 8 men who were charged for losing equipment during the retreat from Jackson. (One caveat—there could have been more than 8; the records on Fold3.com include muster rolls for July & August 1863 and Nov & Dec 1863, but Sep & Oct 1863 are missing for most of the company, so it's possible that those muster roll records could also have recorded similar remarks.) One man was charged $1.00 for losing cartridges and another was charged $13.50 for losing a cartridge box, shoulder strap, 40 cartridges and 48 caps. The other six were charged between $40.50 and $64.25, the size of the fine apparently depending largely on the type of rifle lost. Enfields must have been pricier, muskets less so. That must have created quite the financial burden if they were paid only $11 per month.

There were also two other instances when someone's muster roll card remarks said "lost" or "lost on retreat", but the remarks did not include an itemized list of equipment or a dollar figure. In both cases, the individuals had been captured somewhere, so I don't know if "lost" refers to the individual or to whatever equipment he had with him.

In the course of examining the records, I noted that it was very common for someone to be listed as "absent without leave" and later on as "present". I always thought being absent without leave was a grievous action, but it seems to have happened so often that the severity maybe wasn't as great as it would be today? Can anyone here put that into context?

One thing that was difficult to take in was the number of men who were captured or killed at Franklin and Nashville in late 1864. In Company K alone, at least 24 men were captured and at least 11 killed – more than one-third of the company as best as I can tell.

 

[lelliott19]

One man was charged $1.00 for losing cartridges and another was charged $13.50 for losing a cartridge box, shoulder strap, 40 cartridges and 48 caps. The other six were charged between $40.50 and $64.25, the size of the fine apparently depending largely on the type of rifle lost. Enfields must have been pricier, muskets less so. That must have created quite the financial burden if they were paid only $11 per month.

The amounts you quote for lost cartridges and cartridge box, shoulder strap, cartridges and caps is consistent with other regiments where I have seen stoppages. Same with the range you quote for lost longarms. Indeed, being assessed for a gun would have been quite a burden when the pay was only $11 per month.

In the course of examining the records, I noted that it was very common for someone to be listed as "absent without leave" and later on as "present". I always thought being absent without leave was a grievous action, but it seems to have happened so often that the severity maybe wasn't as great as it would be today? Can anyone here put that into context?

In most of the CS regiments I have examined records for, there are plenty of notated AWOL's where the man turned up later as "present" and which have no record of Court martial, company punishment, or lost pay. Sometimes, if you look closely, you can determine that the man was in a hospital somewhere. Other times, he was furloughed earlier and just late returning. Most of the regiments Ive looked at are for Georgia, Mississippi, and Alabama troops serving in the ANV. With the condition of transportation and difficulties associated with returning to the regiment, I've always assumed that these instances were excused as unintended. No way for the soldier to make it back so no punishment.

One regiment Ive found, that seems to be an example in the opposite direction, is the 16th North Carolina. I've posted previously about the seemingly excessive number of Courts Martial and the severity of the punishments handed down. Keep in mind however, that the regiment I am drawing comparisons to (16th GA) had very few Courts martial and pretty lenient sentences in comparison for those few who were court martialled. Here's the link to the thread about the Courts martial for the 16th North Carolina and the resulting sentences. https://civilwartalk.com/threads/se...ords-16th-north-carolina.149771/#post-1890830

 

[___joe___]

In examining the 33rd Mississippi Company K records, I didn't notice many references to court martial although I wasn't specifically looking for them either. Of the four muster rolls that I looked at closely (Jul & Aug 1863, Nov & Dec 1863, Mar & Apr 1864, Aug 31 1864 to Feb 28 1865), only two mentions of court martial turned up. One was for a recently promoted sergeant who had his pay stopped following sentencing, and the other was for a 1st lieutenant who was "detailed on Genl Court Martial by order Gen Loring," which I take to mean he wasn't in trouble but rather was assigned to hear courts martial.

Of Company K's three muster rolls for Jul & Aug 1863, Nov & Dec 1863 and Mar & Apr 1864, the occurrences of "present" were very consistent at 66, 68 and 67, respectively. The "absent" tally figures were 34, 28 and 19, respectively, broken down by the following reasons:
Sick – 38
Detached/detailed elsewhere – 15
Without leave – 14
Prisoner/on parole – 9
With leave – 5

A few other notations included "Died" (4), "Not Stated" (2) and "Discharged" (1).

Then the final muster roll, which covered the period Aug 31 1864 through Feb 28 1865, records the following:
Present – 17
Captured – 17
Killed/Died – 12
Absent (without leave) – 15
Absent (sick/wounded) – 11
Absent (detached/detailed) – 4
Absent (with leave) – 3
Absent (furlough) – 2

This raises another question, which is when a man was recorded as "present" or "absent" for a given muster roll, does that mean he was present or absent for the entire muster roll period, e.g., 2 months if the period was for Jul & Aug 1863? Or does that mean he was present or absent on the day that the roll was taken?

 

[AlexPensFan86]

This raises another question, which is when a man was recorded as "present" or "absent" for a given muster roll, does that mean he was present or absent for the entire muster roll period, e.g., 2 months if the period was for Jul & Aug 1863? Or does that mean he was present or absent on the day that the roll was taken?

In some instances I have seen, at least with officers, that if they are absent during a several month period the roll will list as absent since (date) and reason for absence (wounded, sick, leave, etc.). However in some rolls it gets a bit murky.

 

[Nathanb1]

Hello @___joe___ Welcome to CivilWarTalk - the best place on the internet for Civil War Discussion. Happy to have you aboard.

Looks like the good folks here have deciphered the carded record for you, but you may be interested in this thread in the Regimental Histories Forum, which includes a lot of information about the 33rd Mississippi ....including this quote from the Regimental History: "The regiment participated in General Johnston's movement to the Big Black River for the relief of Vicksburg, retreating to Jackson when Vicksburg was surrendered, and was on duty with Featherston's Brigade around Jackson, confronted by Sherman's troops, July 9-16, 1863. Later in the year Loring's Division had headquarters at Canton."

Enjoy. https://civilwartalk.com/threads/33rd-mississippi-infantry.132024/

Gee! 33rd Mississippi is MY bunch! Co. K, if I remember correctly, is the Amite Defenders. Poor guy couldn't defend without his weapon, could he?

On a related note, I'll find my GGrandfather's brother's desertion record. They billed him for his horse and gun.

 

[DixieRifles]

Gee! 33rd Mississippi is MY bunch!

I'm reading this carefully because the NARA Card says the 33rd was consolidated with the 22nd Mississippi---My bunch! I know they were brigaded together under General Featherston in March 1863 and remained with Gen Loring's division for the remainder of the war which a rather amazing feat.

First, the records of Private Evans says he dropped his equipment on the retreat from Jackson. This is Jackson, Miss, and it is dated Nov 1863. I was trying to understand when he lost his equipment?
Featherston's brigade was fell back to Jackson after the surrender of Vicksburg. After 19 July, they fell back and wintered in Goodman. It seems they remained there until next February when they retreated from General Sherman's Meridian expedition.

Second:

It's an interesting phenomenon that I have no explanation for. Being charged for lost equipment seems to be common in some regiments and an anomaly in others.
. . . . .
In contrast, I've looked at lots of records for other Confederate regiments where it is almost the norm to find some stoppage for lost equipment in most every man's records. I cant explain it.

I don't think I've even seen this in records for a Confederate unit. I see where they are issued clothing allowance, etc. However, while researching Union records and especially USCT records, I have seen a lot of records of lost items from curry brushes to cartridge boxes. I began to think it was quite common for USCT troops to loose equipment.

 

[lelliott19]

I don't think I've even seen this in records for a Confederate unit. I see where they are issued clothing allowance, etc. However, while researching Union records and especially USCT records, I have seen a lot of records of lost items from curry brushes to cartridge boxes. I began to think it was quite common for USCT troops to loose equipment.

I think some regimental commanders enforced regulations "to the letter of the law" and others didn't. This thread on the same subject includes the a copy of Adjutant and Inspector General's Office, General Orders No 78, dated Richmond, October 28, 1862, regarding the amounts to be charged for lost equipment. I posted a couple of examples of Confederate carded records in the thread.

At These Prices You Better Hang On To Your Weapon | Small Arms & Edged Weapons

Came across this CS General order today. I have never seen an annotation on a muster for charges for "Lost Weapon" and I guess at these prices you tied it around your neck.

civilwartalk.com

 

[madisonman]

In examining the 33rd Mississippi Company K records, I didn't notice many references to court martial although I wasn't specifically looking for them either. Of the four muster rolls that I looked at closely (Jul & Aug 1863, Nov & Dec 1863, Mar & Apr 1864, Aug 31 1864 to Feb 28 1865), only two mentions of court martial turned up. One was for a recently promoted sergeant who had his pay stopped following sentencing, and the other was for a 1st lieutenant who was "detailed on Genl Court Martial by order Gen Loring," which I take to mean he wasn't in trouble but rather was assigned to hear courts martial.

Of Company K's three muster rolls for Jul & Aug 1863, Nov & Dec 1863 and Mar & Apr 1864, the occurrences of "present" were very consistent at 66, 68 and 67, respectively. The "absent" tally figures were 34, 28 and 19, respectively, broken down by the following reasons:
Sick – 38
Detached/detailed elsewhere – 15
Without leave – 14
Prisoner/on parole – 9
With leave – 5

A few other notations included "Died" (4), "Not Stated" (2) and "Discharged" (1).

Then the final muster roll, which covered the period Aug 31 1864 through Feb 28 1865, records the following:
Present – 17
Captured – 17
Killed/Died – 12
Absent (without leave) – 15
Absent (sick/wounded) – 11
Absent (detached/detailed) – 4
Absent (with leave) – 3
Absent (furlough) – 2

This raises another question, which is when a man was recorded as "present" or "absent" for a given muster roll, does that mean he was present or absent for the entire muster roll period, e.g., 2 months if the period was for Jul & Aug 1863? Or does that mean he was present or absent on the day that the roll was taken?

Joe, did you examine the original muster rolls (each being a big sheet of paper), or the carded muster roll records found on individual soldiers' compiled service records? You brought up a very important question at the end of your post which I don't think got answered. I have the same question as you. I think the rolls would normally be signed and dated by a Company officer, and would/should reflect the status of the company as of the date signed - but I may be wrong. Can anyone help us out here? Thanks!

 

[OldSarge79]

Joe, did you examine the original muster rolls (each being a big sheet of paper), or the carded muster roll records found on individual soldiers' compiled service records? You brought up a very important question at the end of your post which I don't think got answered. I have the same question as you. I think the rolls would normally be signed and dated by a Company officer, and would/should reflect the status of the company as of the date signed - but I may be wrong. Can anyone help us out here? Thanks!

I have the original muster roll of Company K, 26th Georgia Infantry for the months of Sept/Oct, 1864. My ancestor is on it.
Entries for three of the men are as follows:
"J. Falwood........Taken prisoner Oct 17th 1864
S.C. Murray........Taken prisoner Sept 22 1864
J.H. Miller..........Taken prisoner Sept 22 1864"

So, madisonman your supposition is correct. They were a summary of what had happened during the two-month period prior to the date finalized.

By the way, I posted a thread on that muster roll last year:

Need preservation & display suggestions for original muster roll | Uniforms & Relics

Just this week I acquired the original muster roll of Co. K, 26th Georgia Infantry, for Sept/Oct 1864, and my ancestor is on it. It measures about 35 inches x 22 1/2 inches, and has been folded multiple times in both directions. I don't want to put it in a drawer, but would like to display it if...

civilwartalk.com

 

[OldSarge79]

The other six were charged between $40.50 and $64.25, the size of the fine apparently depending largely on the type of rifle lost. Enfields must have been pricier, muskets less so.

When reviewing all these other records for Company K, did any of them have a number before the rifle or musket like the one for Evans?
I ask for two reasons.
First, the number on Evans' record appears to be rather faint, like it may have been added later.
Second, if there are others recorded with numbers, it could be an additional clue as to the meaning.