Colt 1860 with stock

[3rdTennCo.C]

Hello all, i had thought about putting this onto the reenacting forum but i figured the history of this weapon would be more than likely known here better. What was the likelyhood of a confederate cavalryman in the western theater would use a 1860 army with the shoulder stock if they came accross one? I know that confed. Cav was known to carry more pistols in the west and in general, but am i right to assum theywould have used one due to the benefits of weight, colapsability, accuracy compared to one without a stock? I like the look of them and figured they were a viable option back then and id like to use one for my impression (gen forrests 3rd tenn cav)
Thanks for any info guys.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

I would think that since the detachable stock weighs as much or more than the revolver, a Cavalryman would opt for a second revolver with 6 quick additional shots, for a total of 12 rounds at his disposal, rather than a butt stock!
J.

 

[sourdough]

I would think that since the detachable stock weighs as much or more than the revolver, a Cavalryman would opt for a second revolver with 6 quick additional shots, for a total of 12 rounds at his disposal, rather than a butt stock!
J.

Historically speaking, the Colt patented 3rd model shoulder stock (as it is seen today) was available for any four screw cut-for-shoulder stock 1860 Army. A fair amount were issued but very few were used. My source is Charles Pate's 1860 Army book. He also shows a photo of an 1860 Army that was used often with the shoulder stock and it seems like it really damaged the pistol's wood grip.

I have always wanted one for display with the gun in a long case. A guy on another forum uses one but he fitted the inside of the stock yoke with a piece of burlap to preclude any damage to the pistol wood.

EMF markets a Pietta Type 3 that will work with a 4-screw gun for $275.

https://www.emf-company.com/store/pc/1860-ARMY-SHOULDER-STOCK-229p1198.htm

Dixie Gun Works has the same stock for $320(!) (it was $295 a few months ago):

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/6616

Imagine a canteen stock filled with water or booze insofar as weight!

Regards,

Jim

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

I didnt really figure that weight would be a real draw back since there are sources of some cavalrymen/units (primarily southern) carrying upwards of 4 to even 6 revolvers, i wonder if some would use it more as a carbine at a distance, hence the increased accuracy, and would carry spare cylinders for a more rapid fire ability (I ask this as in is it realistic for a man to replace his carbine with such an arm if given the chance, not in addition to or use his pistol alone as such)

 

[sourdough]

I think any reference to USA or CSA mounted horsemen (cavalry if you will) carrying upwards of 4 revolvers is a myth, except for possibly the Confederate guerillas in Missouri like Bloody Bill Anderson's or William Quantrill's groups, who would have used captured Union revolvers and carried them in saddle pommel holsters rather than primarily on their person. The captured Union revolvers could have ranged from 1851 Navies, 1860 Armies, 1861 Navies, or even 1848 Dragoons, and I would think those guns would have been spread out amongst the group members so as to have the men somewhat equally armed. I highly doubt spare loaded cylinders were carried for such revolvers as it would be non-conducive for hit-and-run raids like the aforementioned groups used. Retreat to fight another day and then reload the revolvers for the next foray.

The act of even attaching a shoulder stock to a Navy or Army pistol takes a bit of time, and then one would have to figure out how to carry it. IMO, a very poor idea but Colt was trying to muscle into the carbine market with the arms he produced, primarily revolvers.

I cannot envision a horseman using a Colt revolver with a shoulder stock on horseback. It would have taken two hands to properly aim the "carbine" for 6 shots leaving the horse reins free, so it may have been something that a dismounted cavalryman could have used.

With carbines like the Sharps, Spencer, et al, a dismounted cavalryman with a supply of ammunition could reload the gun until the ammunition ran out and they would have been much better than a 6-shot pistol carbine with no possibility of a reload.

Just my $.02 worth.

Regards,

Jim

 

[DixieRifles]

I was just introduced to a training tool used by the Army called "Staff Rides". This is an excerpt from a paper in the Army Staff College for a Staff Ride for the Battle of Chickamauga. Even at that time, late 1863, this study seems to say the Confederate cavalry had stopped using pistols and were using shotguns and carbines. I think by this time, they preferred carrying rifles that had range and accuracy.

Source Link: Staff Ride Handbook for Battle of Chickamauga

 

[Story]

The captured Union revolvers could have ranged from 1851 Navies, 1860 Armies, 1861 Navies, or even 1848 Dragoons, and I would think those guns would have been spread out amongst the group members so as to have the men somewhat equally armed.

I vaguely remember reading haranguing letters from CSA Ordnance types to line units, demanding they turn in excess captured small arms.

 

[Story]

....and would carry spare cylinders for a more rapid fire ability

I'm going to save someone from retyping their response
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/co...ready-market-in-the-west.152876/#post-1952607

 

[Jobe Holiday]

3rdTennCo.C - IMHO, Cavalry had very little use for long distance shooting, but the more available shots to be fired in a Melee, the better!
I have a question, if you don't mind, are you re-enacting on horseback, or on foot?
J.

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

As far as how to carry one, the stock has a mounted loop on it so it would probably be carried on a bandoleer like a normal carbine. How is it difficult to envision a mounted man using a stocked colt on horseback? You say it would take 2 hands to aim and possibly load, but could the same not be said for the firing and loading of a sharps or Spencer? Im sure cav would eventually have to use a carbine on horseback during a fight or raid if they were limited to 1 or 2 revolvers and its not always that they dismounted to use one.

I think any reference to USA or CSA mounted horsemen (cavalry if you will) carrying upwards of 4 revolvers is a myth, except for possibly the Confederate guerillas in Missouri like Bloody Bill Anderson's or William Quantrill's groups, who would have used captured Union revolvers and carried them in saddle pommel holsters rather than primarily on their person. The captured Union revolvers could have ranged from 1851 Navies, 1860 Armies, 1861 Navies, or even 1848 Dragoons, and I would think those guns would have been spread out amongst the group members so as to have the men somewhat equally armed. I highly doubt spare loaded cylinders were carried for such revolvers as it would be non-conducive for hit-and-run raids like the aforementioned groups used. Retreat to fight another day and then reload the revolvers for the next foray.

The act of even attaching a shoulder stock to a Navy or Army pistol takes a bit of time, and then one would have to figure out how to carry it. IMO, a very poor idea but Colt was trying to muscle into the carbine market with the arms he produced, primarily revolvers.

I cannot envision a horseman using a Colt revolver with a shoulder stock on horseback. It would have taken two hands to properly aim the "carbine" for 6 shots leaving the horse reins free, so it may have been something that a dismounted cavalryman could have used.

With carbines like the Sharps, Spencer, et al, a dismounted cavalryman with a supply of ammunition could reload the gun until the ammunition ran out and they would have been much better than a 6-shot pistol carbine with no possibility of a reload.

Just my $.02 worth.

Regards,

Jim

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

3rdTennCo.C - IMHO, Cavalry had very little use for long distance shooting, but the more available shots to be fired in a Melee, the better!
I have a question, if you don't mind, are you re-enacting on horseback, or on foot?
J.

I portray both, depends on if the event allows horses, I would be more likely to use the colt with stock as a dismounted unit
I also know the cav was used for scouting and reconnaissance, if found out, would that not be a time for longer distance if needed?

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Years ago I had done some re-enacting on horseback and the last thing I would have wanted would have been a revolver with a shoulder stock bouncing around! As dismounted Cavalry I'm sure you will present an impression that most spectators may not have seen. As for authenticity, I would rather doubt if the 3rd Tenn. Cavalry ever had anyone with a shoulder-stocked revolver. The old philosophy of "They would have used if they had it." has been pretty much put out to pasture by the historic re-enacting community. Documentation would be the answer to your quest.
J.

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

Years ago I had done some re-enacting on horseback and the last thing I would have wanted would have been a revolver with a shoulder stock bouncing around! As dismounted Cavalry I'm sure you will present an impression that most spectators may not have seen. As for authenticity, I would rather doubt if the 3rd Tenn. Cavalry ever had anyone with a shoulder-stocked revolver. The old philosophy of "They would have used if they had it." has been pretty much put out to pasture by the historic re-enacting community. Documentation would be the answer to your quest.
J.

Personally i would see nominal difference between a stocked revolver bouncing around and a sharps or something imo, what would be some good, reliable sources to find possible documentations on this matter?

 

[Story]

Standards are usually set at events, for what arms are permissiable.

To wit -

ORDNANCE
Long arms: period muskets and correct carbines (Sharps, Burnside, Spencer, Smith preferred).

• Thank you for your prompt attention to the wants of my command. I will endeavor to discharge my whole duty in the responsible position to which I have been assigned. In reporting to Genl. Hardee this morning I applied for Enfield Rifles for my command. Will you do me the favor to support my application as you can testify to the steadiness of my raw recruits under fire.

J. Warren Grigsby
Col. Commanding [6th KY Cav. C.S.]
Oct. 12, 1862

• My gun would have to be loaded again before I could shoot and it took time to load an old Belgian rifle such as I had then. I did not think my saber would be of much use if the enemy began shooting at me out of the woods and from behind the fence with the corners full of high weeds.

Joseph Pettus
6th Ky Cavalry C.S.
Battle of Perryville

• "A large portion of our cavalry are unarmed. Carbines and shotguns or arms suitable for mounted men are greatly wanted, and a supply at this time would add materially to our means of defense of this important department, now threatened on all sides by the enemy."
  -J.F. Belton (Kirby Smith's AAG) to J.M. Galt (Post Commander, Lynchburg, Va.) 6/20/1862

Pistols: period correct cap and ball pistol in holster. Limit pistols – one per trooper.
Carrying more than one pistol or cylinder is not recommended in a cavalry impression more than 2 per man is an anachronism. Troopers were so excited about getting pistols and pistol parts they often put it in their letters home. They simply did not have easy access to small arms. This was common in the border wars and is typical of the "border ruffian" imagery that currently exists in the historical record, but that impression is not appropriate for the Kentucky Campaign.

• "I want fire-arms (not pistols) for cavalry. cannot say how many, as calls are made on me for me daily. would like from 500 to 1,000. ...Can you supply arms?"
  

-General S. Jones to J. Gorgas 9/7/1862

http://www.perryvillebattlefield.org/html/cs_cavalry_impression_2016.html

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

Were the shotguns and carbines primarily used while mounted or when dismounted? I would assume that if they were used while mounted (where I assume most cav did most of their work) that it would be easier to use several pistols vs. using 2 hand operation carbines or muzzle loading shotguns, could anyone speculate why the ordinance department wouldn't have invested into manufacturing more pistols for cav then? seeing that it would probably give them more firepower, ease of use when mounted and were a bit cheaper to produce? just kinda curious about that one.

 

[sourdough]

As far as how to carry one, the stock has a mounted loop on it so it would probably be carried on a bandoleer like a normal carbine. How is it difficult to envision a mounted man using a stocked colt on horseback? You say it would take 2 hands to aim and possibly load, but could the same not be said for the firing and loading of a sharps or Spencer? Im sure cav would eventually have to use a carbine on horseback during a fight or raid if they were limited to 1 or 2 revolvers and its not always that they dismounted to use one.

A man firing a shoulder-stocked Colt revolver would need to keep the off-hand behind the face of the cylinder, unlike the Sharps, or Spencer, or any other non-revolving-cylinder long guns. The probability of burning BP and/or lead fragments from the ball being shaved off when entering the barrel forcing cone exiting the periphery of the cylinder front is great even if the barrel-to-cylinder gap is only .001", and most likely revolvers in the field had more gap than that.

Don't ask me how I know that.

Jim

 

[Deleted User CS]

Welcome from Harrisburg Pennsylvania. Nice collectible.