Lee Colonel Lee

MikeyB

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Joined
Sep 13, 2018
So we all know that Colonel Robert E. Lee USA was offered command of the Union armies by General Scott. Find it somewhat interesting that it was offered to a colonel.

So was Lee really that much of a "boy genius" that Scott favored him above any of the other standing regular army generals? Or were there no regular army generals who didn't go South at that point? Or were the ones that were around, clearly not respected by Scott?
 
In Elizabeth Pryor's biography of Robert E Lee, READING THE MAN, she writes that Lee worked closely with Winfield Scott during the Mexican War and greatly impressed Scott with his military talents. Their frequent collaborations in Mexico led Scott to call Lee, "The very best soldier I ever saw in the field."

Furthermore, during a quarrel between officers in Mexico, Lee publicly stood up for Scott during the court of inquiry, which, as Pryor wrote, "prov[ed] to the old general that he was a man of loyalty as well as bravery, and probably seal[ed] the 'almost idolatrous fancy' Scott reportedly had for him." (I'm in Google books and can't figure out the page number).

In this article (https://www.americanheritage.com/robert-e-lees-severest-struggle#2) Pryor writes:
"Before Lee returned from Texas on March 1, 1861, Virginia had already held a secession convention and the pro-South faction had failed to win the day.

On arrival in Washington, Lee found the capital nervously preparing for the Lincoln administration. In theory Lee had been recalled to sit on a board revising the army’s regulations, but Lee and others were aware that he was being considered for higher responsibility. Lincoln was starting to assemble his military machine, making appointments and reassigning troops. Lee’s capabilities—and his allegiance—were among those under discussion. An aide to Simon Cameron, the new secretary of war, recalled a meeting at which Cameron asked General Winfield Scott if he had confidence in Lee’s loyalty. 'Entire confidence, sir,' was Scott’s typically booming reply. 'He is true as steel, sir, true as steel!' A week later, on March 28, Lee received news that Lincoln had promoted him to full colonel of the 1st Regiment of Cavalry—a coveted position. Lee accepted, once more swearing allegiance to the Union."

As for the offering of command, Pryor writes that on April 17, the day Virginia voted to secede, Robert E Lee's cousin Phillips Lee worried that Robert might go with Virginia and so told the War Department to act quickly. From READING THE MAN:

"The next day [April 18] a note was dispatched to Arlington, calling Lee to the officers of Francis Preston Blair, one of Lincoln's closest advisers, along with another message that requested his presence in General Scott's headquarters. At the meeting with Blair, Lee was told that Lincoln intended to offer him command of the forces being called upon to defend the Union. The two talked for a long time, Blair 'very wily and keen,' playing on Lee's sense of responsibility and ambition. Lee declined on the spot. He saw nothing but 'anarchy & ruin' in secession, he told Blair, yet he could not bring himself to raise his sword against his Virginia home and heritage. From Blair's office Lee marched straight to see Scott, in such agitation that he dispensed with his usual courtesies and insisted on being admitted to the general's office. Lee and Scott, bound for so long in mutual admiration, talked candidly for several hours. What can be pieced together from the available accounts is that Scott tried to persuade Lee that any forces amassed by the Union would be so vast they would stifle the South's will to rebel, making offensive action unnecessary. When Lee said he was convinced aggression was inevitable, and he could not lead an invasion of the South, Scott brusquely rejoined: 'If you propose to resign it is proper that you should do so at once; your present attitude is equivocal.' Now there was nothing left to say. A journalist was told the two men stood grasping each other's hands, 'too full of feeling to find utterance for one word....'"

In 1871 Francis Blair wrote (https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/statement-by-francis-preston-blair-april-14-1871/) -
“The matter was talked over by President Lincoln and myself for some hours on two or three different occasions. Secretary Cameron and myself talked some hours on the same subject. The President and Secretary Cameron expressed themselves as anxious to give the command of our army to Robert E. Lee."

So in summation, Lee greatly impressed General Scott in Mexico. Scott spoke highly of Lee to anyone who would listen, which made Lee the natural choice when Lincoln and Secretary of War Simon Cameron were looking for a man to lead their new army.

Perhaps someone else can speak to how many heads were passed over in offering Lee the command and how those heads felt about the slight.....

Another article by Pryor:
https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/19/the-general-in-his-study
 
So we all know that Colonel Robert E. Lee USA was offered command of the Union armies by General Scott. Find it somewhat interesting that it was offered to a colonel.

So was Lee really that much of a "boy genius" that Scott favored him above any of the other standing regular army generals? Or were there no regular army generals who didn't go South at that point? Or were the ones that were around, clearly not respected by Scott?
Only 5 regular army generals at that point
Scott
Wool (old)
Twiggs (traitor)
Harney (old and in Missouri)
Joe Johnston (resigned to join Confederacy)
 
Only 5 regular army generals at that point
Scott
Wool (old)
Twiggs (traitor)
Harney (old and in Missouri)
Joe Johnston (resigned to join Confederacy)
There are also about a dozen colonels that out ranked Lee. Were there not ten infantry regiments, five mounted regiments, and four artillery regiments in the old army in 1860? Lee's commission as colonel dated March 28, 1861. There would have been several others who outranked the freshly minted Colonel Lee. Given how prickly some of these men were regarding rank and seniority, Lee's promotion would have undoubtedly caused problems for Scott.
 
There are also about a dozen colonels that out ranked Lee. Were there not ten infantry regiments, five mounted regiments, and four artillery regiments in the old army in 1860? Lee's commission as colonel dated March 28, 1861. There would have been several others who outranked the freshly minted Colonel Lee. Given how prickly some of these men were regarding rank and seniority, Lee's promotion would have undoubtedly caused problems for Scott.
not really, when considering how many Politicians got high ranks like Butler and Banks without military experience.
And guys like McClellan who never held a rank above Captain in the old army was bumped up to Major General.
Lee was offered the promotion because he was highly regarded not by Scott alone, but many others in the army and civilians spheres. There wouldn't be as much of a problem with putting in command than say Grant, who was seen as a washed out failure at the time.
 
I don't understand the controversy and discussion on the matter, What's so hard to accept about a "mere" Colonel being offered a higher position?The rank of colonel is not a lowly position, It happened, accept it.
The army (usually) did not work that way. It was unusual for a junior officer to advance to a grade or rank beyond his immediate superior. For example, if a major was promoted by the war department to colonel, jumping over the man who held the rank of lieutenant colonel, then the lieutenant colonel would often resign in protest. This is true in both armies. Probably the most famous case is that of Joseph E. Johnston. Johnston believed, because of his pre-war rank of brigadier general, he should have been the senior Confederate general. However, because he was a staff officer and not a line officer (and that is a whole another conversation), Johnston, when the ranks were published, was the fourth senior Confederate general, behind Samuel Cooper, Albert Sidney Johnston, and Robert E. Lee. That caused a falling out between Jefferson Davis and Johnston.
 
The army (usually) did not work that way. It was unusual for a junior officer to advance to a grade or rank beyond his immediate superior. For example, if a major was promoted by the war department to colonel, jumping over the man who held the rank of lieutenant colonel, then the lieutenant colonel would often resign in protest. This is true in both armies. Probably the most famous case is that of Joseph E. Johnston. Johnston believed, because of his pre-war rank of brigadier general, he should have been the senior Confederate general. However, because he was a staff officer and not a line officer (and that is a whole another conversation), Johnston, when the ranks were published, was the fourth senior Confederate general, behind Samuel Cooper, Albert Sidney Johnston, and Robert E. Lee. That caused a falling out between Jefferson Davis and Johnston.
End of the day: politics.
There may be formal stuff on the books about how stuff like this works, but usually, it is due to having the right people in the right places vouching for you. Scott is commander in chief of the army, and possibly the most respected soldier in America at the start of the war. If he sees Lee as the army's best soldier, and he wants him to be promoted over others, he'll get what he wants. Meanwhile, Davis holds a grudge against Joe Johnston for kicking him out of West Point, and so, while Davis does give him high rank, he puts him below several other officers he has more respect for, like Albert Sidney Johnston and Lee.
I could provide further examples, but I think my point comes across.
 
In Elizabeth Pryor's biography of Robert E Lee, READING THE MAN, she writes that Lee worked closely with Winfield Scott during the Mexican War and greatly impressed Scott with his military talents. Their frequent collaborations in Mexico led Scott to call Lee, "The very best soldier I ever saw in the field."

Furthermore, during a quarrel between officers in Mexico, Lee publicly stood up for Scott during the court of inquiry, which, as Pryor wrote, "prov[ed] to the old general that he was a man of loyalty as well as bravery, and probably seal[ed] the 'almost idolatrous fancy' Scott reportedly had for him." (I'm in Google books and can't figure out the page number).

In this article (https://www.americanheritage.com/robert-e-lees-severest-struggle#2) Pryor writes:
"Before Lee returned from Texas on March 1, 1861, Virginia had already held a secession convention and the pro-South faction had failed to win the day.

On arrival in Washington, Lee found the capital nervously preparing for the Lincoln administration. In theory Lee had been recalled to sit on a board revising the army’s regulations, but Lee and others were aware that he was being considered for higher responsibility. Lincoln was starting to assemble his military machine, making appointments and reassigning troops. Lee’s capabilities—and his allegiance—were among those under discussion. An aide to Simon Cameron, the new secretary of war, recalled a meeting at which Cameron asked General Winfield Scott if he had confidence in Lee’s loyalty. 'Entire confidence, sir,' was Scott’s typically booming reply. 'He is true as steel, sir, true as steel!' A week later, on March 28, Lee received news that Lincoln had promoted him to full colonel of the 1st Regiment of Cavalry—a coveted position. Lee accepted, once more swearing allegiance to the Union."

As for the offering of command, Pryor writes that on April 17, the day Virginia voted to secede, Robert E Lee's cousin Phillips Lee worried that Robert might go with Virginia and so told the War Department to act quickly. From READING THE MAN:

"The next day [April 18] a note was dispatched to Arlington, calling Lee to the officers of Francis Preston Blair, one of Lincoln's closest advisers, along with another message that requested his presence in General Scott's headquarters. At the meeting with Blair, Lee was told that Lincoln intended to offer him command of the forces being called upon to defend the Union. The two talked for a long time, Blair 'very wily and keen,' playing on Lee's sense of responsibility and ambition. Lee declined on the spot. He saw nothing but 'anarchy & ruin' in secession, he told Blair, yet he could not bring himself to raise his sword against his Virginia home and heritage. From Blair's office Lee marched straight to see Scott, in such agitation that he dispensed with his usual courtesies and insisted on being admitted to the general's office. Lee and Scott, bound for so long in mutual admiration, talked candidly for several hours. What can be pieced together from the available accounts is that Scott tried to persuade Lee that any forces amassed by the Union would be so vast they would stifle the South's will to rebel, making offensive action unnecessary. When Lee said he was convinced aggression was inevitable, and he could not lead an invasion of the South, Scott brusquely rejoined: 'If you propose to resign it is proper that you should do so at once; your present attitude is equivocal.' Now there was nothing left to say. A journalist was told the two men stood grasping each other's hands, 'too full of feeling to find utterance for one word....'"

In 1871 Francis Blair wrote (https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/statement-by-francis-preston-blair-april-14-1871/) -
“The matter was talked over by President Lincoln and myself for some hours on two or three different occasions. Secretary Cameron and myself talked some hours on the same subject. The President and Secretary Cameron expressed themselves as anxious to give the command of our army to Robert E. Lee."

So in summation, Lee greatly impressed General Scott in Mexico. Scott spoke highly of Lee to anyone who would listen, which made Lee the natural choice when Lincoln and Secretary of War Simon Cameron were looking for a man to lead their new army.

Perhaps someone else can speak to how many heads were passed over in offering Lee the command and how those heads felt about the slight.....

Another article by Pryor:
https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/19/the-general-in-his-study
I think this is as accurate as can reasonably be determined by available evidence. Keeping in mind, Frank Blair, was not above stating or giviing the impression of knowing more than he did, or more influence with Lincoln on any particular subject, than he did in fact.

It is, I think, reasonable to assume Scott was prepared to offer Lee an important post or command. It is conjecture of what that exactly was. The ambivalence became plain to Scott on their last meeting and whatever he was prepared to offer Lee , Scott wisely remained silent as to what it would have been.
 
So we all know that Colonel Robert E. Lee USA was offered command of the Union armies by General Scott.
Lee was not offered "command of the Union armies"

Exactly what Lee was offered is not completely clear. Most likely it was the force made up of the 75.000 volunteers that would be gathering at Washington.

But it is unlikely that he would be in command of all federal armies. That was Scotts job.
 
Only 5 regular army generals at that point
Scott
Wool (old)
Twiggs (traitor)
Harney (old and in Missouri)
Joe Johnston (resigned to join Confederacy)
This is very helpful, i had no idea there were only 5 and that this was the list.
Was WS the only 2 star?
 
In April 1861 he was the only one.
Everything changed by the summer

Just did some quick wikipedia reading on John Wool. Sounds like he had some pretty decent successes for the Union cause but was forced into retirement by Lincoln after surpressing the NY draft riots.

Was this unjust ageism or was Wool not really that good?
 
Just did some quick wikipedia reading on John Wool. Sounds like he had some pretty decent successes for the Union cause but was forced into retirement by Lincoln after surpressing the NY draft riots.

Was this unjust ageism or was Wool not really that good?
I think Wool was good. But he was 79 in the summer of 1863.... is it unjust to retire at that age? (Lee was a youthful 56 at the time; and Lincoln was but 54)
 
In Elizabeth Pryor's biography of Robert E Lee, READING THE MAN, she writes that Lee worked closely with Winfield Scott during the Mexican War and greatly impressed Scott with his military talents. Their frequent collaborations in Mexico led Scott to call Lee, "The very best soldier I ever saw in the field."

Furthermore, during a quarrel between officers in Mexico, Lee publicly stood up for Scott during the court of inquiry, which, as Pryor wrote, "prov[ed] to the old general that he was a man of loyalty as well as bravery, and probably seal[ed] the 'almost idolatrous fancy' Scott reportedly had for him." (I'm in Google books and can't figure out the page number).

In this article (https://www.americanheritage.com/robert-e-lees-severest-struggle#2) Pryor writes:
"Before Lee returned from Texas on March 1, 1861, Virginia had already held a secession convention and the pro-South faction had failed to win the day.

On arrival in Washington, Lee found the capital nervously preparing for the Lincoln administration. In theory Lee had been recalled to sit on a board revising the army’s regulations, but Lee and others were aware that he was being considered for higher responsibility. Lincoln was starting to assemble his military machine, making appointments and reassigning troops. Lee’s capabilities—and his allegiance—were among those under discussion. An aide to Simon Cameron, the new secretary of war, recalled a meeting at which Cameron asked General Winfield Scott if he had confidence in Lee’s loyalty. 'Entire confidence, sir,' was Scott’s typically booming reply. 'He is true as steel, sir, true as steel!' A week later, on March 28, Lee received news that Lincoln had promoted him to full colonel of the 1st Regiment of Cavalry—a coveted position. Lee accepted, once more swearing allegiance to the Union."

As for the offering of command, Pryor writes that on April 17, the day Virginia voted to secede, Robert E Lee's cousin Phillips Lee worried that Robert might go with Virginia and so told the War Department to act quickly. From READING THE MAN:

"The next day [April 18] a note was dispatched to Arlington, calling Lee to the officers of Francis Preston Blair, one of Lincoln's closest advisers, along with another message that requested his presence in General Scott's headquarters. At the meeting with Blair, Lee was told that Lincoln intended to offer him command of the forces being called upon to defend the Union. The two talked for a long time, Blair 'very wily and keen,' playing on Lee's sense of responsibility and ambition. Lee declined on the spot. He saw nothing but 'anarchy & ruin' in secession, he told Blair, yet he could not bring himself to raise his sword against his Virginia home and heritage. From Blair's office Lee marched straight to see Scott, in such agitation that he dispensed with his usual courtesies and insisted on being admitted to the general's office. Lee and Scott, bound for so long in mutual admiration, talked candidly for several hours. What can be pieced together from the available accounts is that Scott tried to persuade Lee that any forces amassed by the Union would be so vast they would stifle the South's will to rebel, making offensive action unnecessary. When Lee said he was convinced aggression was inevitable, and he could not lead an invasion of the South, Scott brusquely rejoined: 'If you propose to resign it is proper that you should do so at once; your present attitude is equivocal.' Now there was nothing left to say. A journalist was told the two men stood grasping each other's hands, 'too full of feeling to find utterance for one word....'"

In 1871 Francis Blair wrote (https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/statement-by-francis-preston-blair-april-14-1871/) -
“The matter was talked over by President Lincoln and myself for some hours on two or three different occasions. Secretary Cameron and myself talked some hours on the same subject. The President and Secretary Cameron expressed themselves as anxious to give the command of our army to Robert E. Lee."

So in summation, Lee greatly impressed General Scott in Mexico. Scott spoke highly of Lee to anyone who would listen, which made Lee the natural choice when Lincoln and Secretary of War Simon Cameron were looking for a man to lead their new army.

Perhaps someone else can speak to how many heads were passed over in offering Lee the command and how those heads felt about the slight.....

Another article by Pryor:
https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/19/the-general-in-his-study
thanks for the post. Have you ever seen anything to suggest that politics had anything to do with Scott's favoring of Lee? ie. Virginian GiC picks Virginian successor in the name of the Union to instill nationalism into the upper South states.
 
So we all know that Colonel Robert E. Lee USA was offered command of the Union armies by General Scott. Find it somewhat interesting that it was offered to a colonel.

So was Lee really that much of a "boy genius" that Scott favored him above any of the other standing regular army generals? Or were there no regular army generals who didn't go South at that point? Or were the ones that were around, clearly not respected by Scott?
Actually, Col. Lee was offered command by Francis Preston Blair. After his meeting with Blair, Lee stopped by Gen. Scott's office to tell him what had transpired. Gen. Scott replied, "you have made the greatest mistake of your life".
 
Virginian GiC picks Virginian successor in the name of the Union to instill nationalism into the upper South states.

I've not seen anything to suggest this, though I have also not seen anything to discount that interpretation either.

Simon Cameron did call on Virginia on April 15 to provide 3,500 of the 75,000 total troops - three regiments - that Lincoln had called for service as its quota (from the book: Showdown in Virginia: The 1861 Convention and the Fate of the Union). This was not special though - every loyal state had a quota set for it. In perspective, "The quota to each state is as follows: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Delaware, Arkansas, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota, one regiment each; New York 17 regiments; Pennsylvania, 15 regiments; Ohio, 13; New Jersey, Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, four regiments each; Illinois and Indiana, six regiments each; Virginia, three regiments,Massachusetts, North Carolina, and Tennessee, two regiments each."

On April 18 Virginia had just voted to secede but not yet ratified it and the War Department was rushing to confirm Lee's loyalty to the flag before it was too late.

Pryor writes in the New York Times article: "Scott, though a proud Virginian, had dismissed as an insult any hint that he himself would turn from the United States. When Lee offered to sit out the troubles at his home, Arlington, the general told him bluntly: 'I have no place in my army for equivocal men.' Greatly distressed, Lee returned to Arlington to contemplate his options."

She continues:
"The turmoil Lee’s resignation caused at home was mirrored within the Army. Mary Custis Lee describes how a cousin on Scott’s staff rode over to Arlington, informing the family of the disarray at the War Department. Several other officers had quickly followed Lee’s example, and Scott had taken the news hard: 'He laid on his sofa, refusing to see anyone and mourning, as if for the loss of a son. To some one … who rather lightly alluded to the fact, he said with great emotion, ‘don’t mention Robert Lee’s name to me again, I cannot bear it.'’”

So it seems that they were trying to keep a talented officer from leaving by offering him an extremely enticing command. At this point, I'm not sure anyone would think that Lee taking command would prevent Virginia from seceding, especially when the Virginia legislature had already voted in favor. Furthermore, as of April 18, the only states that had yet to secede were Arkansas (May 6, 1861), North Carolina (May 20, 1861), and Tennessee (June 8, 1861). I'm not sure any of them would have been persuaded by Lee.
 
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