Chickamauga

[MikeyB]

What was the best case scenario outcome for the Confederate army, post Chickamauga? Did Bragg do all that could be done, or would a more aggressive personality like Hood have been able to further shred and possibly destroy the AoC?

mike

 

[JeffCSA]

As the Federals fell back from Chickamauga Thomas said the only thing that could save them was Bragg himself. In all fairness, Bragg had an excellent plan to destroy the Federal Army when it was separated into three separate units. This was below the actual battle site and there were sixty miles between the left yankee segment and the right. I believe there was so much disagreement and delays between his generals, unfortunately, it unraveled Braggs plan of attack.

There were a LOT of Confederate cavalry on site between Forrest and Wheeler.....almost 15,000. We are into the 'what if' game here. If they had combined to get in between Chattanooga and the Federal army keeping them from their retreat objective....but you would have to have the head general plan to fall upon them. The debate can be endless. I just wish Lee had came West as President Davis had urged him to do then return back to Virginia.

 

[leftyhunter]

What was the best case scenario outcome for the Confederate army, post Chickamauga? Did Bragg do all that could be done, or would a more aggressive personality like Hood have been able to further shred and possibly destroy the AoC?

mike

The best case scenario is that the AoC besieged in Chattanooga surrenders to the AoT . With the surrender of the AoC Georgia is safe and the AoT can retake Union controlled territory in Tennessee.
The general consensus on the board is that even if Major General Longstreet cooperated with Major General Bragg then Major General Hooker with his 20k men would still have broken the siege of Chattanooga and established the Cracker Line.
Not that the above scenario is a given. Perhaps Longstreet's Corps could have defeated Hooker instead of there ill-fated debacle at Knoxville.
Also if Hooker had been defeated could his men combine forces with Sherman's Army to break the siege of Chattanooga?
Leftyhunter

 

[Robtweb1]

First kill Bragg, then destroy the yankee army before it reached Chattanooga. Any of the corps commanders would have been up to it.

 

[leftyhunter]

First kill Bragg, then destroy the yankee army before it reached Chattanooga. Any of the corps commanders would have been up to it.

In defense of Bragg neither Johnston or Hood did all that much better commanding the AoT. If Longstreet would have deployed his Corps to besiege Chattanooga perhaps Longstreet's Corps would of blocked Hooker's 20k men from breaking the siege of Chattanooga.
Leftyhunter

 

[Carronade]

First kill Bragg, then destroy the yankee army before it reached Chattanooga. Any of the corps commanders would have been up to it.

The first part, or the second?

 

[Carronade]

The best case would be the destruction of Rosecrans' army before it got back to Chattanooga. Granted, the complete defeat of an army in the field was a rare occurrence, but the circumstances including the Confederate superiority in cavalry might make this as good a chance as they were likely to get.

Presumably they would then advance as far as they could back into central Tennessee, while the Union scrambled to assemble forces - Hooker, Sherman, Burnside, etc., probably all under command of Grant. To avoid being engaged and defeated in detail, they would have to concentrate fairly far back, potentially giving the rebs back a lot of territory. They might not be able to resume the offensive before winter.

Meanwhile in Virginia, Lee managed to keep Meade in check through the remainder of 1863, but a key question for the 1864 campaign would be whether to send Longstreet back to the ANV.

 

[diane]

The best chance for destroying the Union army was the one Forrest observed, where they were 'evacuating as hard as they could go' to Chattanooga. They were in ideal disarray and demoralized, and he knew once they attained Chattanooga they would begin burrowing like bunnies and then it would be a siege. The Confederate cavalry could well have prevented this.

 

[MikeyB]

As the Federals fell back from Chickamauga Thomas said the only thing that could save them was Bragg himself. In all fairness, Bragg had an excellent plan to destroy the Federal Army when it was separated into three separate units. This was below the actual battle site and there were sixty miles between the left yankee segment and the right. I believe there was so much disagreement and delays between his generals, unfortunately, it unraveled Braggs plan of attack.

There were a LOT of Confederate cavalry on site between Forrest and Wheeler.....almost 15,000. We are into the 'what if' game here. If they had combined to get in between Chattanooga and the Federal army keeping them from their retreat objective....but you would have to have the head general plan to fall upon them. The debate can be endless. I just wish Lee had came West as President Davis had urged him to do then return back to Virginia.

Were Forrest and Wheeler chomping at the bit to cut off the Federal retreat, and ultimately the fault lies w/ Bragg for not cutting them lose? Or were most Confederate commanders content with stopping the Federal advance and winning (arguably?) the greatest Confederate victory of the war to date?

 

[MikeyB]

The best case would be the destruction of Rosecrans' army before it got back to Chattanooga. Granted, the complete defeat of an army in the field was a rare occurrence, but the circumstances including the Confederate superiority in cavalry might make this as good a chance as they were likely to get.

Presumably they would then advance as far as they could back into central Tennessee, while the Union scrambled to assemble forces - Hooker, Sherman, Burnside, etc., probably all under command of Grant. To avoid being engaged and defeated in detail, they would have to concentrate fairly far back, potentially giving the rebs back a lot of territory. They might not be able to resume the offensive before winter.

Meanwhile in Virginia, Lee managed to keep Meade in check through the remainder of 1863, but a key question for the 1864 campaign would be whether to send Longstreet back to the ANV.

So let's take the what-if to completion. If Rosecrans was largely destroyed, and Grant has to concentrate various Union commands to repel Confederate advances in the West, is it not hard to see a scenario where the South gains its independence?
1) Surely the March to the sea doesn't happen. In fact, Grant probably doesn't come East, Bragg remains in command, and the Western theater in 1864 is a real front again, versus merely a delaying of Sherman's march through GA
2) Meade stalemates against Lee
3) All of this means Lincoln has a much tougher election on his hands, and if Mac wins, Meade is stalled in VA and the Confederacy is still a threatening force in the West, maybe the Peace Democrats are successful in a negotiated peace

 

[Irishtom29]

There was no good rebel scenario, short of fantasy. Once the Federals were back in Chattanooga they quickly rallied and were capable of defending the town. And the rebels were simply unable to prevent the Federals from retreating to the town, remember that the fighting at Chickamauga continued until late in the 2nd day and it was far easier for the Federals to retreat to the town than for the rebels to organize a night time pursuit. Note too that the rebel army had suffered horrible losses, perhaps the highest as a percentage of any victorious army in the war.

Once the Army of the Cumberland was safe in the town their capture was impossible and the worst that could've happened was a retreat from the town, a retreat the rebels, lacking the resources to invest the town couldn't have prevented. No doubt such a retreat would entail great hardship but given rebel logistics pursuing such a retreat might've entailed even more.

Once Washington decided to reinforce Chattanooga with the 11th and 12th Corps and the Army of the Tennessee the rebel goose was cooked. The only way out for them would've been a fantasy in which bad decisions are replaced by good ones, incompetent commanders replaced by capable ones and battles lost replaced by battles won.

 

[uaskme]

Forrest climbed the tree at Rossville Gap and thought he saw the Federals Retreating. They were not. They were getting rid of all non essential personnel. What he didn't see, and no one knows why he didn't see, the AOC entrenched at Rossville Gap. Confederates would of had to make a frontal assault. Federals escaped the evening prior at about dark. Was dark by the time Horseshoe Ridge was cleared. And over the Night had reformed.

The mistakes made by the AOT are numerous. As stated before. Federals crossed a 1,200 foot wide River and 2 mountains before Bragg knew where they were. Then failed at Davis's Crossroads, when they had a 3 to 1 numerical advantage. Then at Chickamauga, turned the Right instead of the Left Flank. Just got worse, much worse at Chattanooga and Missionary Ridge.

Rosecran's plan was to be in ATL by the end of 63'. Another Confederate commander surely could of made it harder on the Federals, than what occurred. Has to be the biggest blunder of the War.

 

[diane]

Forrest's artillery didn't hurt them much at the gap but it did drive them further back to Chattanooga. Armstrong and Dibrell did good work forcing back Minty's cavalry. So, Forrest definitely did know what was at Rossville Gap. It wasn't enough at that point to stop a route, which is what was going on with the Federals. They got a grip, that's true, but not at the point Forrest knew they needed to be hit.

 

[Georgia Sixth]

The best chance for destroying the Union army was the one Forrest observed, where they were 'evacuating as hard as they could go' to Chattanooga.

I agree, Diane. The only chance to exploit the Union rout was on their line of retreat into Chattanooga. "Keep up the skeer" as Forrest would say. Don't know that it would have destroyed the AOC but it likely would have resulted in many large captures, reducing the size of the Union army dramatically. That said, once the Federals were in Chattanooga, their enormous advantage in logistics kicks in. (1) They're a touch over a hundred miles from their supply base of Nashville, so help can be forwarded to them quickly by rail. (2) Nashville was a hub with the RR coming down from Louisville and the Cumberland River coming up from the Ohio Valley. Reinforcements, supplies and munitions were coming, it would only be a question of how soon. And as the Union generals of the western theater had already demonstrated, they knew how to get things done.

 

[leftyhunter]

So let's take the what-if to completion. If Rosecrans was largely destroyed, and Grant has to concentrate various Union commands to repel Confederate advances in the West, is it not hard to see a scenario where the South gains its independence?
1) Surely the March to the sea doesn't happen. In fact, Grant probably doesn't come East, Bragg remains in command, and the Western theater in 1864 is a real front again, versus merely a delaying of Sherman's march through GA
2) Meade stalemates against Lee
3) All of this means Lincoln has a much tougher election on his hands, and if Mac wins, Meade is stalled in VA and the Confederacy is still a threatening force in the West, maybe the Peace Democrats are successful in a negotiated peace

Or maybe the election of McCellen doesn't matter so much. We can't know the outcome of a what if but we do know in fact that McCellen did state unequivocally that he would recognize Confederate Independence.
Even if the Confederacy regains some territory in Tennessee the Confederacy is simply not viable.
The value of slaves has decreased drastically since the Union will emancipate any escaped slave's. The blockade is constantly tightening and it is difficult to make a profit off cotton. No guarantee that Lee can protect Richmond.
Leftyhunter

 

[JeffCSA]

You have to remember Forrest was in position to cut the retreat off. He was in position at where the present day location of McDonalds is early on the second day. An ideal jumping off spot. He already didn't get along with Bragg and threatened to kill him that night....told him so to his face. He probably didn't have orders to get between the Army of the Cumberland and Chattanooga and maybe poor communication or none, thereof, at critical moments.

 

[uaskme]

Were Forrest and Wheeler chomping at the bit to cut off the Federal retreat, and ultimately the fault lies w/ Bragg for not cutting them lose? Or were most Confederate commanders content with stopping the Federal advance and winning (arguably?) the greatest Confederate victory of the war to date?

Don't think the Federals told them exactly when they were retreating.. Happened in 2 stages. Kelly Field first and then Horseshoe Ridge. It was approaching dark and was dark before Horseshoe Ridge retreated. Most Confederates didn't know exactly what happen till the next morning. Walthall and Govan were swept off the Lafayette road by Turchin, who led the retreat from Kelly Field.

Don't think Joe Wheeler Chomped at the Bit during any of the engagement, or the prior weeks. Terrible failure. After the days battle ended, he went into camp about 5 miles south of the battlefield, so he was out of position the next morning. Forrest was engaged. Bragg should of cashiered Wheeler and Kept Forrest. Wheeler was a Bragg Loyalist.

 

[jackt62]

Bragg's best chance for victory was actually before the battle that was fought on September 19-20th. In the preceding days, Bragg devised an excellent plan to attack the separated wings of Rosecrans' forces, and destroy them in detail, before they reunited. But due to the failure of some of Bragg's subordinates (particularly Leonidas Polk) to either willfully or incompetently follow through on Bragg's orders, the planned destruction of the federal wings never came to fruition.

 

[OldReliable1862]

Does anyone think having Lee come West, even if briefly, would alleviate the ill feeling in the AoT and help their performace in battle? Then again, Lee had never worked with Polk, Buckner, Wheeler, or Forrest before, and disliked D. H. Hill, so maybe it won't change much.

 

[JeffCSA]

The common soldier in the Confederate ranks was spoiling for a fight. With Lee there they would have fought like madmen. I feel the real advantage would have been that Lee would have pressed hard to destroy what was left of Rosecran's army. What makes me think that is twofold: He would know he was sent west to get results and he would want maximum results quickly to return back to Virginia. Make no mistake...the AOT would have fought their hearts out for him.