Tell me more! Charleville Musket

[FedericoFCavada]

Revolutionary-era franken musket: So cool! Yes, "no two are alike" made up from parts... Big headache!

Dragoon: notice the odd double barrel band in the middle...

Yes, the 1763 was found to be too heavy, hence the redesign. Some collectors refer to the M1763 "pesant" (heavy) and the M1766 "leger" (light-er). I think the transformations of stock fittings are circa 1773-1774, on the eve of the American Revolution, yes?

The U.S. Model 1795 used a lot of influences from the 1766 Charleville.
The Model 1812 and contracts based on its pattern owed much to the "Corrige An IX" or 1800 French musket, itself a derivative of the 1777 series.

There was an odd arsenal at Versailles that turned out some presentation-grade weapons, and also made a handful of blunderbusses for the Mamelukes recruited by Napoleon during the whole Egypt campaign and misadventures/tragedies/boondoggles/blood letting, etc.

Great photos of some very interesting muskets gentlemen! *doffs hat* Thanks for favoring us with them! Nice to see inside your museum.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Mr Neumann did the Hartford, CT (moved to Sturbridge, Mass) antique arms show before he past on. I took all his books up there to have him autograph them and he wrote inspirational stuff along with his signature. Great guy. I brought one of the Polearms in his book from him and will forever kick myself in the rear for not buying a sword he had I wanted.

Mr. Neumann wrote a thicker book in similar style that covered other Rev War items, not just arms. Some of his info was published in a series of articles in the American Rifleman magazine.

I don't know what I paid for this book, but it is worth several times the price, and I recommend it without hesitation.

 

[DixieRifles]

Here it is hanging in my bar with my other flintlocks.

The top one is the Charleville.

The middle one is a Defarbed Pedersoli Brown Bess, with a few changes to make it look like a Committee of Safety Musket.

The bottom one is a Pedersoli Blue Ridge .50 cal.

Nicely displayed.
I don't have the room so my long rifles hang over my closet door and window.

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

Nicely displayed.
I don't have the room so my long rifles hang over my closet door and window.

Thank you. My wife, children and the 3 Mastiffs took over the whole house (rightly so) with her antiques and plants, the kid's toys, and the mutts slobber. So that room is all I have to watch football, play poker, and store most of my firearms, minus the home defense ones.

 

[DixieRifles]

So that room is all I have to watch football, play poker, and store most of my firearms, minus the home defense ones.

Lovely! We downsized and I'm pretty cramped in my office.
I like the long rifles but I don't have any flintlocks. I've never seen that Pedersoli Blue Ridge. It doesn't quite have the look of a Pennsylvania rifle. But I would certainly like to shoot it.

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

Lovely! We downsized and I'm pretty cramped in my office.
I like the long rifles but I don't have any flintlocks. I've never seen that Pedersoli Blue Ridge. It doesn't quite have the look of a Pennsylvania rifle. But I would certainly like to shoot it.

It's a little bit shorter then a PA rifle. Cabelas sells them.
It's shoots real well, once I worked up a good load for it.
Hopefully I can get a deer with it for flintlock season after Christmas.
I won't dare go out during the regular season, too many drunk idiots with itchy trigger fingers.
Plus using a traditional muzzleloader (percussions are allowed in the fall) is so much more enjoyable and challenging then an centerfire rifle.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Revolutionary-era franken musket: So cool! Yes, "no two are alike" made up from parts... Big headache!

Dragoon: notice the odd double barrel band in the middle...

Yes, the 1763 was found to be too heavy, hence the redesign. Some collectors refer to the M1763 "pesant" (heavy) and the M1766 "leger" (light-er). I think the transformations of stock fittings are circa 1773-1774, on the eve of the American Revolution, yes?

The U.S. Model 1795 used a lot of influences from the 1766 Charleville.
The Model 1812 and contracts based on its pattern owed much to the "Corrige An IX" or 1800 French musket, itself a derivative of the 1777 series.

There was an odd arsenal at Versailles that turned out some presentation-grade weapons, and also made a handful of blunderbusses for the Mamelukes recruited by Napoleon during the whole Egypt campaign and misadventures/tragedies/boondoggles/blood letting, etc.

Great photos of some very interesting muskets gentlemen! *doffs hat* Thanks for favoring us with them! Nice to see inside your museum.

here is an interesting fact: The US so closely copied French muskets that Springfield Armory used the French Metric system sizes for screw threads. When Springfield was established in 1795, the major longarm in US stocks was the French Model 1766, and so Springfield wanted to be making parts that could be used on these existing arms. There was an adjustment and standardization of screw thread sizes during the Civil War, but it wasn't until the 30-40 Krag bolt action rifles (think "Spanish American War") that all threads were "English" measurements and not "metric" measurements.

 

[bayonet]

Thank you. My wife, children and the 3 Mastiffs took over the whole house (rightly so) with her antiques and plants, the kid's toys, and the mutts slobber. So that room is all I have to watch football, play poker, and store most of my firearms, minus the home defense ones.

sounds familiar, wife gets the whole house I get my man cave office to display the collection.

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

sounds familiar, wife gets the whole house I get my man cave office to display the collection.

, I'm sure it's fairly common. But oh well, I mean it could be worse right ?

 

[James N.]

Mr Neumann did the Hartford, CT (moved to Sturbridge, Mass) antique arms show before he past on. I took all his books up there to have him autograph them and he wrote inspirational stuff along with his signature. Great guy. I brought one of the Polearms in his book from him and will forever kick myself in the rear for not buying a sword he had I wanted.

I've told this story before, but on the other hand there was Norm Flayderman... The fusil deparielle in my collection was purchased from one of his catalogs as a "typical" Revolutionary musket; of course it is - but the wrong Revolution than what was almost certainly deliberately inferred. By the time I purchased this in the mid-70's Hicks had already produced his volume on French arms - published by none other than Normie Baby himself, as my friend Robert Justice referred to him - and since this circumstance was described therein what this in fact was should've been obvious. Fortunately to the intended patsy - ME! - it was; what I was looking for was a reasonably priced French Revolutionary or preferably Napoleonic infantry musket and in that I was satisfied.

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

I've told this story before, but on the other hand there was Norm Flayderman... The fusil deparielle in my collection was purchased from one of his catalogs as a "typical" Revolutionary musket; of course it is - but the wrong Revolution than what was almost certainly deliberately inferred. By the time I purchased this in the mid-70's Hicks had already produced his volume on French arms - published by none other than Normie Baby himself, as my friend Robert Justice referred to him - and since this circumstance was described therein what this in fact was should've been obvious. Fortunately to the intended patsy - ME! - it was; what I was looking for was a reasonably priced French Revolutionary or preferably Napoleonic infantry musket and in that I was satisfied.

With respect, it is kind of funny how things sometimes work out.

 

[James N.]

I found the correct bayonet for mine, it just need 2 minutes of filing inside the socket and it fit fine. As far as the Brown Bess I took it to a show and the third to the last table had one that fit fine. Only took maybe a year of hunting for one that fit.

You can't see what's on the ends of mine, but I found what I believe to be a French Napoleonic-era bayonet in an antique shop on Cape Cod for $40 or $50 in the 1990's. Its socket is slightly out-of-round but with a little tapping - more like pounding, I guess - it fits the fusil, though it's missing its locking ring. The repro "1763" (it doesn't actually conform to one) has its bayonet lug welded to wrong side of the barrel (bottom instead of top if I remember right) so although it doesn't take an actual French bayonet, it nevertheless works with an original Brown Bess I have.

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

You can't see what's on the ends of mine, but I found what I believe to be a French Napoleonic-era bayonet in an antique shop on Cape Cod for $40 or $50 in the 1990's. Its socket is slightly out-of-round but with a little tapping - more like pounding, I guess - it fits the fusil, though it's missing its locking ring. The repro "1763" (it doesn't actually conform to one) has its bayonet lug welded to wrong side of the barrel (bottom instead of top if I remember right) so although it doesn't take an actual French bayonet, it nevertheless works with an original Brown Bess I have.

That's awesome!

As much as I'd like to have bayonets for my muzzleloaders that take them. I don't have the time right now to dive into it. But one day hopefully I will.

 

[James N.]

You've posted those beauties before, . Nice to see them again.

James N. Thanks for the great photos. That's a collection to be proud of!

John

Now over twenty years ago when I moved from Dallas to East Texas I sold many of my sabers and all but one of my French pistols to a friend and fellow French collector who happened to be the executive chef for the La Madeline chain of high-toned French bakeries and restaurants. (I understand he and they have since returned to France.) I only kept a single pistol, a poor M.1777 box-lock or pistolet a' coffre above I had purchased many years before and had to replace the hammer on; it's also missing its distinctive ramrod and has had the (likely) Charleville marking filed off. (But happily, NOT the 80 indicating its year of manufacture!) Lately I've gotten a hankering for more of them, so in the past two years being unable to do much else because of the Pandemic I've splurged on now four more of them. Here's one of my most recent:

Pistol No. 1

To all appearances this is a M.1763/66; however, in the era this was manufactured the designation was changed to simply Pistol No. 1. The M.1777 being no doubt too expensive and time-consuming to manufacture it was no longer being made and they reverted to this previous model. it's unfortunately neither as compact, light, nor elegant as its predecessor and is noticeably poorly-balanced. I purchased this specimen this past October at the famous Horse Soldier Shop in Gettysburg while on vacation. Of course that particular place is notoriously high-priced but following an old antiquing dictum it can be good to buy things like this that are outside their normal area of expertise or interest, so I believe I got a reasonable deal.

The most notable thing about these interpretations of the M.1763/66 is the substitution of the new and then Politically Correct name Libreville for the old Charleville on the lockplate. This lasted only a few years through the worst excesses of the Terror before being changed back to Charleville, making it more rare than otherwise. All mounts are in iron instead of brass as was sometimes formerly used, particularly for those intended for naval use. Unfortunately the stock appears to have been repaired and I think the ramrod may be a replacement.

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

View attachment 422168


Now over twenty years ago when I moved from Dallas to East Texas I sold many of my sabers and all but one of my French pistols to a Friend who happened to be the executive chef for the La Madeline chain of high-toned French bakeries. (I understand he and they have since returned to France where you might say they belong.) I only kept a single pistol, a poor M.1777 box-lock or pistolet a' coffre above I had purchased many years before and had to replace the hammer on; it's also missing its distinctive ramrod and has had the (likely) Charleville marking filed off. (But happily, NOT the 80 indicating its year of manufacture!) Lately I've gotten a hankering for more of them, so in the past two years being unable to do much else because of the Pandemic I've splurged on now four more of them:

Pistol N. 1
View attachment 422173

To all appearances this is a M.1763/66; however, in the era this was manufactured the designation was changed to simply Pistol N. 1. The M.1777 being no doubt too expensive and time-consuming to manufacture it was no longer being manufactured and the reversion was made to this model. it's unfortunately neither as compact, light, or elegant as its predecessor and is noticeably poorly-balanced. I purchased this specimen in October at the famous Horse Soldier Shop in Gettysburg while on vacation.

View attachment 422171

The most notable thing about these interpretations of the m.1763/66 is the substitution of the new Politically Correct name Libreville for the old Charleville on the lockplate. All mounts are in iron instead of brass as was sometimes formerly used. Unfortunately the stock appears to have been repaired and i think the ramrod may be a replacement.

View attachment 422172

Nice and thank you for sharing. My wife would club me to death with one while I was sleeping if I started collecting pistols.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I've told this story before, but on the other hand there was Norm Flayderman... The fusil deparielle in my collection was purchased from one of his catalogs as a "typical" Revolutionary musket; of course it is - but the wrong Revolution than what was almost certainly deliberately inferred. By the time I purchased this in the mid-70's Hicks had already produced his volume on French arms - published by none other than Normie Baby himself, as my friend Robert Justice referred to him - and since this circumstance was described therein what this in fact was should've been obvious. Fortunately to the intended patsy - ME! - it was; what I was looking for was a reasonably priced French Revolutionary or preferably Napoleonic infantry musket and in that I was satisfied.

Did your friend sing his nickname for Norm Flayderman, ("Normie Baby") to the tune of the song "Santa Baby?"

 

[Cavalier]

James N. No. 1 would be my choice for pistol of the month. Being the flintlock fan that I am, and French flintlock at that, I would nominate her for pistol of the year!

Thanks again for the photos!

John

 

[VMI88]

Kyle,

Would you mind measuring the length of the ramrod for me? I have a reproduction Charleville made by Miroku on which the end of the ramrod is behind the muzzle, just like yours. I thought it had been shortened but maybe it's correct.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I think it was not unusual for a musket to me made with ramrod sticking out some, half an inch or even an inch - it didn't interfere with use, and could have been easier to withdraw.

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

Kyle,

Would you mind measuring the length of the ramrod for me? I have a reproduction Charleville made by Miroku on which the end of the ramrod is behind the muzzle, just like yours. I thought it had been shortened but maybe it's correct.

Sure I will. Give me an hour or two, and I'll post the measurements.